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The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

But each life has the same value. So more lives means more important.

@PhaserLightShow

There is also the value of the culture, heritage and civilization that would be destroyed in the process. As far as Starfleet knew, this was the entire native culture of that planet (at this point they didn't yet know that the Bak'u were highly advanced settlers).

Yeesh, I can't believe I'm justifying this stupid movie. :ack:

Kor
 
There is also the value of the culture, heritage and civilization that would be destroyed in the process. As far as Starfleet knew, this was the entire native culture of that planet (at this point they didn't yet know that the Bak'u were highly advanced settlers).

Yeesh, I can't believe I'm justifying this stupid movie.

Kor
Value of culture is subjective so not everybody agrees. So we must defer to logic to find the correct course of action rather than basing our choices on flawed and illogical opinions and emotions. The same applies to your opinion on Insurrection.

@PhaserLightShow
 
It was supposed to be allegorical to such real-life historical scenarios as the forced relocation of Native Americans and the destruction of their cultures.

The ethics, morals, ramifications, etc. of such actions most definitely deserve discourse. But Insurrection did a terrible job of it.

Kor
 
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It was supposed to be allegorical to such real-life historical scenarios as the forced relocation of Native Americans and the destruction of their cultures.

The ethics, morals, ramifications, etc. of such actions most definitely deserve discourse. But Insurrection did a terrible job of it.

Kor
This point right here. Regardless of how others might argue it, the point the film was trying to make is that what the Federation was doing was wrong, morally wrong, and the Enterprise crew had to stop it. However, as the memo from the Paramount execs shows, the situation they crafted was difficult to defend siding with the Ba'ku.

That's the point. The numbers don't make sense and therefore makes a flawed argument for forced relocation.
 
In the TNG episode "Homeward," Picard was OK with moving the primitive Boraalans to another planet without them ever realizing it, all the while keeping their whole culture intact and untainted, using the transporters and holodecks. Why wasn't he OK with orchestrating something similar with the Bak'u? :shrug:

Kor
 
In the TNG episode "Homeward," Picard was OK with moving the primitive Boraalans to another planet without them ever realizing it, all the while keeping their whole culture intact and untainted, using the transporters and holodecks. Why wasn't he OK with orchestrating something similar with the Bak'u? :shrug:

Kor

He actually wasn't OK with it. He was forced into it.
 
The point is that we are supposed to fall on the side of the 600. That is the "moral" choice our heroes make, and we "should" agree.
Well, I agree. The planet belonged to Ba'ku and the Federation had no right to claim it. There could have been only one Ba'ku there and it still would have been wrong to take the planet. Are people really saying that the Federation should go around conquering planets for natural resources?
 
Are people really saying that the Federation should go around conquering planets for natural resources?

I am. The Ba'ku couldn't protect themselves. Better the Federation relocate them than wait around for the Klingons, Romulans or Dominion to do it.
 
Well, I agree. The planet belonged to Ba'ku and the Federation had no right to claim it. There could have been only one Ba'ku there and it still would have been wrong to take the planet. Are people really saying that the Federation should go around conquering planets for natural resources?

It fell with in the Federation territory and was not the Ba'ku's homeworld. Regardless of the extreme positions that are taken in the film, there are arguments to be made for being able to use the world, with or without relocation.

The point is, the Ba'ku are dying out due to a low population, and that the Federation is in the middle of a war were a life saving technology could benefit countless lives. I'm not saying its right, but there is at least a discussion to be had rather than a hard and fast "No" and "Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 
It's been a while since I saw that one. He didn't mount an insurrection against it, anyway.
The situation wasn't really comparable. In that case it was the natural causes destroying the planet of the aliens, so they had to be relocated. And the aliens were smuggled to Enterprise against his will. At that point he had little choice, he really couldn't push them out of the airlock.
 
I am. The Ba'ku couldn't protect themselves. Better the Federation relocate them than wait around for the Klingons, Romulans or Dominion to do it.
What's next, conquering planets for dilithium? You are advocating becoming conquerors like Klingons. No, this is not what Federation stands for. Picard was absolutely right. What you suggest would lead to Terran Empire.
 
In "Mirror, Mirror," Starfleet needed the dilithium that was available on the Halkan planet. Kirk communicated with them to negotiate for it. They said no. With superior power at his disposal, he could have taken it anyway, but he didn't. He moved on. The end.

Was Starfleet of a hundred years later in such dire straits that they had to forcibly take the resources of the Bak'u planet?

This is yet another reason why I prefer the TOS era.

Kor
 
It fell with in the Federation territory and was not the Ba'ku's homeworld. Regardless of the extreme positions that are taken in the film, there are arguments to be made for being able to use the world, with or without relocation.
Ba'ku had been on that planet longer than Federation had existed, it was theirs. But yes, I agree that the proper way to approach the issue would have been to try to negotiate some sort of an agreement with the Ba'ku.

The point is, the Ba'ku are dying out due to a low population, and that the Federation is in the middle of a war were a life saving technology could benefit countless lives. I'm not saying its right, but there is at least a discussion to be had rather than a hard and fast "No" and "Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
There are always justifications for conquest. Doesn't make it okay.
 
I've never believed that a few should sit on resources that could help numerous other people.
 
Ba'ku had been on that planet longer than Federation had existed, it was theirs. But yes, I agree that the proper way to approach the issue would have been to try to negotiate some sort of an agreement with the Ba'ku.


There are always justifications for conquest. Doesn't make it okay.
But the issue isn't black and white either, at least as presented. That's my larger point is the film does a terrible job of it, and everyone comes off looking rather dickish.

Obviously, moral and ethical arguments abound for both sides. Doesn't change the film.

I've never believed that a few should sit on resources that could help numerous other people.
It's like the ethics question I had in undergrad. A pharmacist invents a life saving drug but demands an extraordinary price for it. Is a man justified in stealing it to save his wife?
 
I'm getting the urge to do the unthinkable.... and watch INS again, so I can be better informed for this discussion.

:barf2:

Kor
 
I've never believed that a few should sit on resources that could help numerous other people.
Even when the resources are not yours to take? Mega rich person practises tax avoidance to reduce their tax bill to the state, the same state which uses tax revenue to build society's infrastructure, educate and defend its citizens etc. Party X denouces all tax avoidance schemes and states in their next manifesto that everyone earning/inherits over £500k will have to pay more taxes. Guess what Party X NEVER wins an election...
 
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