CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

[jaime]

Well Alex doesn't find it to be a waste...

That's from the Dec 21st captains log

Which also has this picture...

That level of construction is not needed for a fan film. a sharp corner at the floor/wall would work just as well even if it limited a few shots. That level of construction is in my opinion overkill, it's an example of scope creep where even though it may have started with good intentions hampered the production.

Credit where it's due, that is a nice green screen. Though seems less impressive seeing it being painted. Perfect for skateboards too. Space surfing scene!

Just probably not in Axanar

 

[CaptGrumpy]

Credit where it's due, that is a nice green screen.

It's definitely green.

 

[steam235]

Credit where it's due, that is a nice green screen. Though seems less impressive seeing it being painted. Perfect for skateboards too. Space surfing scene!

Just probably not in Axanar

It is impressive and awesome. Axanar has a ton of things that are awesome and impressive. But at some point they should have set down and made a list of needs and wants and just back things down a bit so we'd have a completed movie on less impressive sets rather than impressive facilities and no film.

 

[Indysolo]

Via TampAxanar:

Neil

 

[Jay]

Via TampAxanar:

Neil

You, sir, are transformative to the T.

 

[Mudd]

Actually, it's gold.

 

[muCephi]

That level of construction is in my opinion overkill, it's an example of scope creep where even though it may have started with good intentions hampered the production.

THIS is scope creep:

THAT green screen is:

 

[muCephi]

You know, I noted in the Axanar podcast 31 that at one point, Alec references that he was keeping records in "Quick Books". Exact quote might help with all these finances by (a) asking why they didnt use that to publish info and (b) having CBS ask for those computer files. Also of course they can go after any accountant and any bank account info.

The podcast at one point dumps on someone who questioned $21,000 or so for Axanar patches, and the director or someone said (it sounds like,) "Alec paid for them", all 60,000 of them (!). It didn't say Axanar Productions paid for them (though that might be implied, or the company may have reimbursed him). Still, it raises at least a flag to review the interaction of personal accounts and donor money on this project.

And the patches rant about how stupid the questioner was, didn't allow the possibility that the questioner was saying "why so much" given there were probably less than 10k donors at the time of the questioning, and it never occurred to the questioner that they would make 60k patches rather than 5k or so. (and really, why make so many?)

Of course all this needs to be independently verified as an accurate accounting of the podcast, by listening to the podcast, before any publication elsewhere... but, fyi...

 

[Professor Zoom]

You know, I noted in the Axanar podcast 31 that at one point, Alec references that he was keeping records in "Quick Books". Exact quote might help with all these finances by (a) asking why they didnt use that to publish info and (b) having CBS ask for those computer files. Also of course they can go after any accountant and any bank account info.

The podcast at one point dumps on someone who questioned $21,000 or so for Axanar patches, and the director or someone said (it sounds like,) "Alec paid for them", all 60,000 of them (!). It didn't say Axanar Productions paid for them (though that might be implied, or the company may have reimbursed him). Still, it raises at least a flag to review the interaction of personal accounts and donor money on this project.

And the patches rant about how stupid the questioner was, didn't allow the possibility that the questioner was saying "why so much" given there were probably less than 10k donors at the time of the questioning, and it never occurred to the questioner that they would make 60k patches rather than 5k or so. (and really, why make so many?)

Of course all this needs to be independently verified as an accurate accounting of the podcast, by listening to the podcast, before any publication elsewhere... but, fyi...

Who is going to do all of this? CBS/Paramount doesn't care about this. This is the problem for the donors. Peters doesn't have to release any of this information publicly. Why would he? Why would he release the quick books files? Why would any business (who is not non-profit) open they books? Sure, he says he's transparent, but, why does he need to be fully so?

Don't get me wrong, it's interesting. It's a lovely conspiracy story, or one of gross incompetence, but... Unless someone from the inside spills the beans, or maybe some donors get to get together and sue... I don't think we will ever see the records.

Personally, I'm much more interested in the copyright case. Donors... well... they donated to a project that someone had no right to do... The risk was right there in the Kickstarter, it came to pass... that money is gone...

 

[GSchnitzer]

Got a couple of complaints regarding a perceived tit-for-tat between users KennyB and HMS Ark Royal a couple of days ago.

This is a reminder about the longstanding guideline on the boards: "be critical of posts' content but not of the member making the post." (That is, no ad hominem attacks--generally shortened to "post, not poster.")

"He seems to think he is extremely witty," I suppose, is one of the ad hominem comments. There was also the comment "HMS Ark Royal seems to think that makes somebody a bad person."

I've certainly seen more egregious ad hominem comments, but posters are admonished to comment on "posts, not posters."

Now back to your regular scheduled Axanar news and scuttlebutt.

 

[lurok]

The giant green screen is a joke. ..

This.

The amount of green screen you need is only relevant to how much you want to replace in background. Tommy Kraft's excellent Trek Horizon being a case in point.

 

[Red Shirt]

You know, I noted in the Axanar podcast 31 that at one point, Alec ... >snip>

As an an added afterthought from listening to that podcast, I found AP & RMB's comments off the wall, contradictory and unbalanced. If you listen to about the beginning 20 minutes of it, its full of caveats and praise towards fans, CBS/P, fan films and such. So if you don't have much time to listen to the whole thing, you're left with the impression of upbeat positivity.

However, after that point AP & RMB go in the opposite direction sneering with holier than thou put downs towards anyone and everyone not kissing their buttocks while laying out their plans of usurping CBS/P with the Holy Axanar Empire, with themselves as Rulers of Trek.

Both come across as though they are entitled to Star Trek IP they don't own and have convinced themselves they speak for all "Tru-Trek fans." The phrase legends in their own minds describes them perfectly. After listening to that podcast, I am not surprised why Axanar went down the toilet facing a lawsuit.

 

[muCephi]

Who is going to do all of this? CBS/Paramount doesn't care about this. This is the problem for the donors. Peters doesn't have to release any of this information publicly. Why would he? Why would he release the quick books files? Why would any business (who is not non-profit) open they books? Sure, he says he's transparent, but, why does he need to be fully so?

Don't get me wrong, it's interesting. It's a lovely conspiracy story, or one of gross incompetence, but... Unless someone from the inside spills the beans, or maybe some donors get to get together and sue... I don't think we will ever see the records.

Personally, I'm much more interested in the copyright case. Donors... well... they donated to a project that someone had no right to do... The risk was right there in the Kickstarter, it came to pass... that money is gone...

Donors are being addressed publicly by various people reading this thread. The fact that Alec and his director said these things in a podcast might be helpful in any eventual lawsuit, since the statements can be pursued in discovery as specifics to explain. Just like all their statements that they "are using CBS IP" open them to being asked to explain during discovery what they meant in each case.

Will CBS ask for accounting of the funds? I don't know, but they are claiming that gain accrued to persons and/or corporate entities as a result of the infringement, so it might be reasonable for them to ask for the books as part of discovery, the books being information only Axanar has. If statements by Axanar management give reason to believe that the funds were not being managed in an orderly fashion, it opens the door to discovery of how/whether any of the funds may have ended up in private accounts. Again, it allows for more specific discovery.

So its basically facilitation of discovery that is behind my pointing out these statements.

 

[Kaltauba47]

From what I can tell - yes. However, as AP's goal was to have a studio that could be rented out to other fan productions or "independent" productions perhaps he felt that a giant green screen would impress other simple minded rubes that were basking in the glory of a successful Kickstarter campaign.
Or it was just torpedo envy.

Or just another way to impress and waste donor money.

 

[Kaltauba47]

You know, I noted in the Axanar podcast 31 that at one point, Alec references that he was keeping records in "Quick Books". Exact quote might help with all these finances by (a) asking why they didnt use that to publish info and (b) having CBS ask for those computer files. Also of course they can go after any accountant and any bank account info.

The podcast at one point dumps on someone who questioned $21,000 or so for Axanar patches, and the director or someone said (it sounds like,) "Alec paid for them", all 60,000 of them (!). It didn't say Axanar Productions paid for them (though that might be implied, or the company may have reimbursed him). Still, it raises at least a flag to review the interaction of personal accounts and donor money on this project.

And the patches rant about how stupid the questioner was, didn't allow the possibility that the questioner was saying "why so much" given there were probably less than 10k donors at the time of the questioning, and it never occurred to the questioner that they would make 60k patches rather than 5k or so. (and really, why make so many?)

Of course all this needs to be independently verified as an accurate accounting of the podcast, by listening to the podcast, before any publication elsewhere... but, fyi...

Alec writes all the checks according to Captain's Logs and podcasts he yet he paid for them with axanar money.

 

[Red Shirt]

Donors are being addressed publicly by various people reading this thread. The fact that Alec and his director said these things in a podcast might be helpful in any eventual lawsuit, since the statements can be pursued in discovery as specifics to explain. Just like all their statements that they "are using CBS IP" open them to being asked to explain during discovery what they meant in each case.

Will CBS ask for accounting of the funds? I don't know, but they are claiming that gain accrued to persons and/or corporate entities as a result of the infringement, so it might be reasonable for them to ask for the books as part of discovery, the books being information only Axanar has. If statements by Axanar management give reason to believe that the funds were not being managed in an orderly fashion, it opens the door to discovery of how/whether any of the funds may have ended up in private accounts. Again, it allows for more specific discovery.

So its basically facilitation of discovery behind pointing out these statements.

I think AP & Co.'s Axanar finances will be closely scrutinized due to the lawsuit stating in item 64): On information and belief, Defendants enjoy a direct financial benefit from the preparation, duplication, and distrubution of the infringing Axanar Works.

 

[Franklin]

Who is going to do all of this? CBS/Paramount doesn't care about this. This is the problem for the donors. Peters doesn't have to release any of this information publicly. Why would he? Why would he release the quick books files? Why would any business (who is not non-profit) open they books? Sure, he says he's transparent, but, why does he need to be fully so?

Don't get me wrong, it's interesting. It's a lovely conspiracy story, or one of gross incompetence, but... Unless someone from the inside spills the beans, or maybe some donors get to get together and sue... I don't think we will ever see the records.

Personally, I'm much more interested in the copyright case. Donors... well... they donated to a project that someone had no right to do... The risk was right there in the Kickstarter, it came to pass... that money is gone...

It's been alluded to waaaaay up thread and probably several times across the thread, but crowdfunding is as regulated as the Wild West right now, and donors need to be aware of that going in. Most "losses" are probably too small to merit a legal fight to get the donation back. I'm not unsympathetic, but it seems to me giving to any crowdfunding plea is simply playing the probabilities. A gamble. One hopes, an informed one.

Peters did make it clear that there were risks to donating. Also, any potential donor should've done more due diligence on Peters the businessman before parting with hard-earned money in the first place. They would've found the Propworx bankruptcy in 2012 and the failed sports fantasy business in 2008 (or so). They also would've noticed no real experience in producing a feature-length film. That is, the producer and star, Peters, was the least professional person of the lot. Not that Peters wasn't simply a victim of bad luck before and couldn't get something right eventually, but his track record and scanty CV in the movie business might have at least made one want to think twice before giving him money.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Does anyone hear of any donors getting interested in pursuing legal action? Either through a state agency or through litigation?

I have a feeling, nothing will come of that. Or, they are waiting to see if CBS/Paramount will do something for them...

 

[muCephi]

I think AP & Co.'s Axanar finances will be closely scrutinized due to the lawsuit stating in item 64): On information and belief, Defendants enjoy a direct financial benefit from the preparation, duplication, and distrubution of the infringing Axanar Works.

Yes, that's it. During discovery, you can ask a more pointed question if you can reference a public statement made by the person being deposed. I think the podcasts provide a whole Jeopardy show of quotes to ask Axanar management about, which will in turn make it much harder for the Axanar managers to claim they don't remember any details or that someone else was responsible (some ways of ducking deposition which I have seen).

For example, in Podcast 31 when talking about their unlicensed game piece set, at one point I believe I recall Alec remarking that they have license agreements in a filing cabinet ready to go. Because he said that, the studios can probably ask for a copy.

I'd like to think that CBS/P have grabbed all the podcasts and web pages including info on Archive.org of the prior states of the axanar website and other PR, and have contracted out a legal firm specializing in pulling together evidence from disparate documents, so that they pave the road with specifics during depositions and document discovery requests if it really reaches that point.

I understand there is AI working in this sort of information correlation already, doing background research on precedents and the like. Perhaps the studios could use it, and then during depositions, have the AI with blinkenlights on the desk interject against incorrect statements. Axanar principals could wear their triangular nonTrek medals and have the computer read out what they represent, as best it can determine from public records.

 

[muCephi]

Peters did make it clear that there were risks to donating. Also, any potential donor should've done more due diligence on Peters the businessman

The kickstarter risks statement only asserted that in a general way there are risks typical of any business, and the risk that CBS could pull the plug due to being the owner, but that the Axanar management understood how to manage this issue to do it right and were all professionals.

There was no specific guidance, nor even any allusion to the fact that the objectives of the 'infrastructure' kickstarter ran contrary to the CBS guidance for fan films. I think if there were at some point to be a donor lawsuit, it might hang its hat to some degree on Axanar not providing sufficient notice of the risks.

As far as looking up Mr. Peters' history, the project management presented themselves all as industry professionals with prior success. I think one could make the case that a fan donor should be able to rely on implications made in the Kickstarter (see for example how they end the risk statement).

Sure, its a wild west; all the more reason imo it is likely that some State AG, or even legislature, is going to see Axanar or some similar event as a big enough deal to trigger a push for consumer protection measures/precedents wrt/ the crowdfunding industry.