• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

Status
Not open for further replies.
If "no" (you "presold", bought the facilities but never made the product) - different ballgame entirely because you never actually created an infringing work, so we're not even in an infringement case. Which is one of the lines Winston and Strawn is trying to pursue - "we haven't even infringed yet.") Instead, it smells to me more like a fraud or theft case with respect to the funds you took for goods you never delivered.
It seems to me that by bundling Prelude and Axanar together in the legal complaint as "the Axanar Works," the plaintiffs are trying to counter the notion that 'they haven't made a movie yet.' The facilities were created and used to deliver the Prelude DVDs and Blu-rays and stood at the ready for the upcoming Axanar portion of the Works.
 
I read the previous post - this was my reaction

sthk.gif

I've poked around twitter and seen some exchanges involving AP and RMB that elicit the same reaction......
 
Thanks for the additional explanation. I think that while you're legally correct that CBS/Paramount isn't trying to make this case about how Axanar treated its donors, if it does successfully recover damages, it presents CBS/P with an opportunity to make a grand gesture to counter Axanar's "this suit is an attack on fandom" narrative. Dedicating any recovered damages as partial reimbursements to those who sank their money into Axanar would go far. Certainly, CBS/P have made no indication to that effect, but it does offer an opportunity to address Peters' spin.

Sure, it's possible.

But I have to say that the petty side of me says "if I was C/P, and I saw all these places on the internet where donors were telling Alec to fight the good fight, and that C/P is just jealous or scared, and C/P only filed the lawsuit because 'doodz, that ST: Beyond trailer SUX', I'd be just as likely to say "ya know, completely and utterly fuck those donors for their poor choice in friends."

But that's the petty side of me.

M
 
Godammit I hit send accidentally.

Continuing my earlier message:

So plaintiff would argue something like the following:

1. You raised $1.5 million solely by infringing my IP.
2. You spent $1.5 million on a studio to create the infringing work.
3. But wait - you still have the studio and are going to use it to create other works.
4. So the value of the studio wasn't exhausted by the one infringing act.
5. So we should only attribute part of the price of the studio as an "expense attributable to the infringement". The rest is profit to you.

I'm stopping there before I screw up again. But sorry I missed your original point.

M

yes, that was my thought. I am not clear how an infringer should be able to write off the costs of making the first set of DVDs at all, but I'm not an attorney. The gist still seems to be one couldn't just shelter the takings in an investment in a way that could be 'written off' as the cost of committing the infringement, by making sure to invest all the takings and not show a "profit" in the bank.

Thanks for the additional explanation. I think that while you're legally correct that CBS/Paramount isn't trying to make this case about how Axanar treated its donors, if it does successfully recover damages, it presents CBS/P with an opportunity to make a grand gesture to counter Axanar's "this suit is an attack on fandom" narrative. Dedicating any recovered damages as partial reimbursements to those who sank their money into Axanar would go far. Certainly, CBS/P have made no indication to that effect, but it does offer an opportunity to address Peters' spin.

I think a few thousand posts ago I (probably not the first) proposed CBS should do just this. Whether they might avoid it because it could set a precedent citable in business contexts they didn't intend, well, that's another kettle of fish. Imagine corporations being on the hook to return monies to customers cheated by a third party with whom the corporation was doing business, enforced as a general principle.
 
Last edited:
1. As I stated before - relations between Axanar and its donors is not C/P’s concern. I think that C/P’s goal remains, and has always been, just to shut down Axanar as a “Star Trek” product. This is borne out by their initial complaint - which frankly seemed a bit half-hearted as it was most likely filed with the expectation that AP would fold without a fight. Now that Axanar has put up a fight, C/P may dig in and drop a carload of claims on them - but, again, to get the point across of “we’re serious, don’t mess with C/P”, not to decimate everyone involved for the sheer “wrath of God” joy of it.
I'm sure they were surprised that Axanar found someone to represent them pro bono, most probably fold after C&D, let alone being presented with a full-blown lawsuit.
 
I'm sure they were surprised that Axanar found someone to represent them pro bono, most probably fold after C&D, let alone being presented with a full-blown lawsuit.

I think even quantum mechanics didn't expect them to get pro bono. I am certainly curious what the real motivations of the firm amount to.
 
Sure, it's possible.

But I have to say that the petty side of me says "if I was C/P, and I saw all these places on the internet where donors were telling Alec to fight the good fight, and that C/P is just jealous or scared, and C/P only filed the lawsuit because 'doodz, that ST: Beyond trailer SUX', I'd be just as likely to say "ya know, completely and utterly fuck those donors for their poor choice in friends."

But that's the petty side of me.

M

If I may quote the Rules of Acquistion.....

1 - "Once you have their money, never give it back."

8 - "Small print leads to large risk."

19 - "Satisfaction is not guaranteed."

39 - "Don't tell customers more than they need to know."

60 - "Keep your lies consistent.

68 - "Risk doesn't always equal reward.

82 - "The flimsier the product, the higher the price."

97 - "Enough... is never enough."

99 - "Trust is the biggest liability of all."

108 - "Hope doesn't keep the lights on.

111 - "Treat people in your debt like family.....exploit them."

208 - "Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer."

211 - "Employees are the rungs on the ladder of success. Don't hesitate to step on them."

218 - "Sometimes what you get free costs entirely too much."

239 - "Never be afraid to mislabel a product."

261 - "A wealthy man can afford anything except a conscience."
 
Vic Mignogna uses 'Star Trek Continues' to lead by example ...

http://1701news.com/node/1075/mignogna-continues-fan-series-leads-example.html

"If CBS were to write me tomorrow and say, 'OK, you know what? We are changing our stance on fan productions. You need to stop now,'" Mignogna told 1701News. "My public response would be to say the following: 'Star Trek Continues' is so very grateful to CBS for the privilege to have spent the last few years paying tribute to the show that we all love. And at their request, we will not be making any more. But I want to thank them for the opportunity to have done so in the first place."
 
Well, none of us have fool-proof crystal balls here, and C/P have been virtually silent on this matter beyond what is stated in the original complaint (which will be obsolete once they file the expected amended complaint.) So I will admit that your guess as to how things will turn out is as good as mine. But that being said, I don’t see a great likelihood of C/P demanding return of donor money for two reasons:

1. As I stated before - relations between Axanar and its donors is not C/P’s concern. I think that C/P’s goal remains, and has always been, just to shut down Axanar as a “Star Trek” product. This is borne out by their initial complaint - which frankly seemed a bit half-hearted as it was most likely filed with the expectation that AP would fold without a fight. Now that Axanar has put up a fight, C/P may dig in and drop a carload of claims on them - but, again, to get the point across of “we’re serious, don’t mess with C/P”, not to decimate everyone involved for the sheer “wrath of God” joy of it.

2. I think we all overvalue what C/P would be able to recover from a jury if it won every copyright claim at trial - and that has a real bearing on what C/P could demand of Axanar in a settlement. The Copyright Act measure of damages is “plaintiff’s profits attributable to the infringement plus damages actually suffered by defendant.” (More on that second part later) Even though it’s clear that most donations and costs of goods (coffee) sold (“revenue”) are attributable to the infringement (everyone donated because of the ST connection, probably the same for the coffee), the “revenue” is not the same as the “profits attributable to the infringement”. The law specifically permits the defendant to deduct from revenue expenses of production/cost of goods (and other GAAP amounts), along with any revenue amounts that are attributable to factors other than the infringing goods themselves. (17 USC Sec. 504(b) - “In establishing the infringer's profits, the copyright owner is required to present proof only of the infringer's gross revenue, and the infringer is required to prove his or her deductible expenses and ... profit attributable to factors other than the copyrighted work.”

(Simple example - I make counterfeit DVDs of ST movies - it costs me $5 per DVD to make the copies and $1 per copy to ship them, and I charge $8 per copy. My revenue is $8/copy - but the law allows me to deduct my $6 in copying and shipping costs to arrive at the $2 profit I made. Plaintiff gets $2 per copy - the profit attributable to the infringement.)

So while we may “see” revenue (donations) of $1.5 million, C/P is probably not entitled to recover $1.5 million. They are basically entitled to recover whatever is left over after Axanar makes all deductions from revenue permitted by law (such as money spend on production to date, costs of the coffee and packaging, creation of models, and other allocable expenses.) And so what leverage does C/P have to force Axanar to pay back 100% of the donations if Axanar knows C/P would only get a fraction of that from the court if Axanar simply refused to settle?

As to the other possible amounts of recovery :

Actual damages” - I don’t see any other “actual damages” C/P has suffered - they are pissed at Axnar, but haven’t been hurt by Axanar, other than the cost of attorneys. So I think this adds “zero” to money that would give leverage to force Axanar to give money back to donors.

Attorneys fees” - the Copyright Act says that fees “may” be awarded, not “must” be awarded, so it is within the discretion of the judge. But C/P would keep any attorneys’ fees awarded, not tell Axanar “nah, don’t pay us, give it back to the donors instead. So I also think this adds “zero” to money that would give leverage to force Axanar to give money back to donors.

Statutory damages” - a real wildcard, as the court can award as little as $100 per infringed work up to $150,000 per infringed work, or anywhere in between. But I don’t see statutory damages being on the high end of the scale here - the max amount is usually reserved for literal copying of a whole work, not “taking one small piece from this work (a character from one episode), and one piece from this other work (a ship design shown onscreen for 2 minutes out of a 48 minute show). Though the copying across multiple works was immense here in the aggregate, a judge could find the amount copied from any individual work was arguably small on a “per infringed work” basis and award correspondingly low statutory damages. So I don’t think statutory damages is going to “raise the pot” so much higher that C/P suddenly has leverage to say “settle and give $1.5 million back to the donors or you will be liable to us for much more”

And even if C/P could get the max statutory damages - why does anyone think they would tell AP to give it back to the donors rather than keep it themselves?
____

Hey - please know that everything I say here is meant in a “friendly discussion” tone - I’m not trying to “school ya” or prove you wrong, because my crystal ball is no better or worse than yours and time may prove you 100% right and me wrong. But based on my experience with the law and the claims C/P has raised to date, I just can’t personally get behind the theory that C/P is going to do anything that would put much - if any - of the donor’s money back in their hands. Donors need to be realistic about this and start looking into their own rights to get that money back.

M
Again, (IMO) C/P really don't care that much about recovering their costs or damages. They want to make sure they show that NO ONE involved with Axanar (beyond Hollywood Union members - and only those that were paid for performing Union scale for whatever work they did) comes away with ANY sort of financial/material gain. Also, for someone who states no one has a Crystal Ball you sure seem to think the court will low ball any statutory damages. I have a feeling if the Axanar merchandizing aspect is introduced and proven, that could influence the court to award high statutory damages. It all depends what's found and put forth from discovery - but Axanar's own video blogs paint a totally different picture of what they were working toward overall - but again it all depends what from any discovery is allowed and presented at trial.
 
^^ In other news: I'm a little less disappointed in Sean Tourangeau today as he at least seems smart enough not to jump into the fray, and perhaps even recognizes what idiots Peters and his other cronies are being.

12791097_10208594700362610_4155146511968027359_n.jpg
Thanks, but as I have said I will refrain from jumping in on one side or the other. I am just a Trek fan that wants to see Trek back to what it was. I just happened to get caught between everyone fighting. I have lost my faith in Trek lately with all of this going on. I will leave it at that and get back to doing what I like which is being creative.(and hopefully folks like my works) if it gets me a job in the industry it does, if it doesn't oh well and I will move on with my life.
 
Thanks, but as I have said I will refrain from jumping in on one side or the other. I am just a Trek fan that wants to see Trek back to what it was. I just happened to get caught between everyone fighting. I have lost my faith in Trek lately with all of this going on. I will leave it at that and get back to doing what I like which is being creative.(and hopefully folks like my works) if it gets me a job in the industry it does, if it doesn't oh well and I will move on with my life.

What about Mudd slinging?

Will you take part in that, Titan? :lol:
 
I have tried to read the last few pages of this Thread carefully, so please forgive me if I missed an answer to this question;

Can C/P be awarded the New Cracker-Jack Scambo-Studio, as part of a possible settlement or judgement?
 
I have tried to read the last few pages of this Thread carefully, so please forgive me if I missed an answer to this question;

Can C/P be awarded the New Cracker-Jack Scambo-Studio, as part of a possible settlement or judgement?

No, The studio is owned by a third party and rented to Axanar Productions. Upgrades to the physical building like the upgraded electrical are owned by the land lord.

If they go through bankrupcy, Axanar could be ordered to sell of assets, such as furniture and equipment to pay their debt holders.

It would be hard call whether the lighting grids and green screens are upgrades the landlord can claim or sellable assets. But either way the court can't make the landlord's lease with Axanar become a lease with CBS/Paramount
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top