JJ Abrams Was Kinda Right About Trek Needing To Get Its Act Together

[Griffeytrek]

And yet...

The fatally burned, but distinctly not bleeding Spock :



The fatally burned humans:






Also, 60's tv censorship was less about producers being 'considerate of their audience,' and more along the lines of 'they were terrified of being outright yanked off the air.'

Star Trek long had a policy of never showing Spock bleeding. And not for any kid safe, no violence, or heroic character reasons. They had early on defined Spock as "green blooded", but trying to portray green blood or other exotic blood colors on screen rarely works well. Certainly not with the budgets and technology they were playing with at the time. It's one of those weird uncanny valley things. If you smear fake red blood on someone your brain accepts it and fills in the rest, even when real fresh blood doesn't look like Hollywood blood. But attempt an exotic color and your brain hits the brakes and goes wtf? At least for anything that your brain registers as more or less human. Stuff like Ridley Scott's Alien your brain is already so deep in the wtf ride that it shuts down and goes with it. This is also why that bright purple CGI blood in ST VI looks so awful. (The other more modern reason for avoiding showing Spock bleeding? Green blood makes fx work harder as it messes with and complicates the green screen process. Easier and cheaper just to avoid the subject.)

 

[BillJ]

Star Trek long had a policy of never showing Spock bleeding. And not for any kid safe, no violence, or heroic character reasons. They had early on defined Spock as "green blooded", but trying to portray green blood or other exotic blood colors on screen rarely works well. Certainly not with the budgets and technology they were playing with at the time. It's one of those weird uncanny valley things. If you smear fake red blood on someone your brain accepts it and fills in the rest, even when real fresh blood doesn't look like Hollywood blood. But attempt an exotic color and your brain hits the brakes and goes wtf? At least for anything that your brain registers as more or less human. Stuff like Ridley Scott's Alien your brain is already so deep in the wtf ride that it shuts down and goes with it. This is also why that bright purple CGI blood in ST VI looks so awful. (The other more modern reason for avoiding showing Spock bleeding? Green blood makes fx work harder as it messes with and complicates the green screen process. Easier and cheaper just to avoid the subject.)

Pretty sure this is non-sense as we've seen Vulcans/Romulans bleed on the modern shows. I'm pretty certain we see Spock bleed in Star Trek (2009).

 

[jaime]

It is still an American program made for American audiences. CBS wouldn't be making new Trek if they weren't going to show it here. Being American is part of Trek's cultural identity. Just like "being British" is part of Doctor Who's cultural identity. Or being Japanese is part of Space Battleship Yamato's cultural identity.

I'm not for a homogenized world.

Oh I agree, it's as American as Apple pie, and and no point have I said it isn't...merely that when considering its audience, the producers have been considering an international one, as well as domestic, since at least 1979. It's not about a homogenized world. (See even my spell check is American) (and of course earth in star trek is very homogenized)
All of which is beside the point, as even domestically Trek was shown on different networks in different areas with different sensibilities, and has an eye on how to satisfy those. Hence the Queens loyal subject Bill Shatner crossing his eyes wildly to fight that.
Producers consider audience, in the way I have been talking about to reach as wide an audience as possible. And that is a good thing, because it is what makes Trek something that crosses boundaries be they national or generational.
Stop doing that, and it narrows its audience. I don't want my kid to wait 15 years for what will be his generations Trek, just because someone somewhere wanted it to be edgy for the sake of it. That's not how Trek was, and it doesn't have to be how it will be.

 

[jaime]

Pretty sure this is non-sense as we've seen Vulcans/Romulans bleed on the modern shows. I'm pretty certain we see Spock bleed in Star Trek (2009).

It's also the wrong kind of green to mess up green screen work, not least as green screen is recent enough that there's a decent chunk of chi available to fix anything. If he had bled blue back in the day, it may have been an issue.
I think if there was a policy in place it would probably be to do with that nightmare they had with Vina being colour corrected in the lab.
The Shat was of course, a master of the heroic bleeding shot.

 

[Trekkin]

You know, I just took a look at the UK ratings for various Star Trek movies.

Star Trek: Stardate Collection (the TOS/TNG movie boxset)- 12+
Star Trek 2009 & STID - 12+
Star Trek TOS: The Complete Journey - Parental Guidance
Star Trek: TNG: The Complete Journey - 12+
Star Trek: VOY: The Complete Series - 12+
Star Trek: DS9: The Complete Journey - 12+
Star Trek: ENT: The Complete Journey - 12+

So even ignoring all this...theorising about who the franchise is supposably aimed at, officially the entirety of the franchise (in their various uncut forms) is considered pretty much equal in terms of 'appropriateness'.

And I don't know about anyone else, but I'd consider 'appropriate for 12-year-olds' to be 'kid friendly'. It's just like with The Dark Knight, I don't think that means the same thing as 'this is intended for children'. It just means your kid shouldn't need therapy if they happen to see it.

 

[Franklin]

Pretty sure this is non-sense as we've seen Vulcans/Romulans bleed on the modern shows. I'm pretty certain we see Spock bleed in Star Trek (2009).

Spock had bloody green marks on his back from the whipping he (and Kirk) took in "Patterns of Force". (And, that's my two cents added to this entire thread.)

 

[jaime]

You know, I just took a look at the UK ratings for various Star Trek movies.

Star Trek: Stardate Collection (the TOS/TNG movie boxset)- 12+
Star Trek 2009 & STID - 12+
Star Trek TOS: The Complete Journey - Parental Guidance
Star Trek: TNG: The Complete Journey - 12+
Star Trek: VOY: The Complete Series - 12+
Star Trek: DS9: The Complete Journey - 12+
Star Trek: ENT: The Complete Journey - 12+

So even ignoring all this...theorising about who the franchise is supposably aimed at, officially their uncut forms are all considered pretty much the same in terms of 'appropriateness'.

And I don't know about anyone else, but I'd consider 'appropriate for 12-year-olds' to be 'kid friendly'. It's just like with The Dark Knight, I don't think that means the same thing as 'intended for children'.

Kinda my point. The really interesting thing is that box sets only display the highest rating from the contents. And the ratings changes because of the introduction of the 12 rating with Batman Returns. Khan I think has been recertificated, my 1998 Vhs is the 15 release, but before roughly that time it was cut to get a PG.
I have to know which episodes I can sit and watch with my 4 year old, and then within that, I know which ones it is best to stay in the room for (and in some cases, of what would be his favourite episodes, precisely when to walk in front of the TV to avoid certain scenes. Some episodes actually go off the viewable list, because as he gets older, things that would have been ignored or not noticed when he was younger begin to raise problems. It certainly keeps me on my toes. Literally.) and which ones it is safe to go make a drink during. This includes watching the 7pm showing sometimes on syfy, though it is difficult with the 11am showing of enterprise, as I am not as familiar with it as Tng or ds9. But because it is Trek, I have a high chance that it will be OK to watch together, and if not, that's what we developed the parental dive for the remote control technique for.

 

[Griffeytrek]

Pretty sure this is non-sense as we've seen Vulcans/Romulans bleed on the modern shows. I'm pretty certain we see Spock bleed in Star Trek (2009).

It was something Westmore mentioned in one of his makeup books if I recall. (It's been about 20 years since I read it. It's sitting in a crate 1000 miles away) The book was talking about use of colors in makeup effects and one of the side stories was the TOS production crew was not allowed to show Spock bleeding, in part because it was felt that it would not look quite believable.

Pretty sure this is non-sense as we've seen Vulcans/Romulans bleed on the modern shows. I'm pretty certain we see Spock bleed in Star Trek (2009).

I could swear it is one of Westmore's Makeup and FX books. He (or whoever wrote the text?) mentioned that in the earlier days they avoided Spock bleeding because the color just never looked right. He was talking about how colors work with regards to fx makeup. And how and why blood can be believable. It's been over 20 years since I read the book. (probably still sitting in a crate at my parents). The information in it well predates Enterprise or nuTrek. I don't think it was a Star Trek specific book. It was a big thick book. Almost like a textbook or guidebook on theatrical makeup effects. It showed a bunch of Star Trek subjects including the Borg and Data's electronics (whiz bang cutting edge at the time), but I don't think it was all Trek.

as for colored welts on Spock following being whiped? I confess I don't remember ever noticing that. I'll take your word for it.

 

[jaime]

It was something Westmore mentioned in one of his makeup books if I recall. (It's been about 20 years since I read it. It's sitting in a crate 1000 miles away) The book was talking about use of colors in makeup effects and one of the side stories was the TOS production crew was not allowed to show Spock bleeding, in part because it was felt that it would not look quite believable.


I could swear it is one of Westmore's Makeup and FX books. He (or whoever wrote the text?) mentioned that in the earlier days they avoided Spock bleeding because the color just never looked right. He was talking about how colors work with regards to fx makeup. And how and why blood can be believable. It's been over 20 years since I read the book. (probably still sitting in a crate at my parents). The information in it well predates Enterprise or nuTrek. I don't think it was a Star Trek specific book. It was a big thick book. Almost like a textbook or guidebook on theatrical makeup effects. It showed a bunch of Star Trek subjects including the Borg and Data's electronics (whiz bang cutting edge at the time), but I don't think it was all Trek.

as for colored welts on Spock following being whiped? I confess I don't remember ever noticing that. I'll take your word for it.

There's a magazine ' St tng Michael Westmores make up journal' which was a follow up to the technical journal (a nice companion to the tech manual) which you might be thinking of. I can't lay hands on my copy atm either.

 

[BillJ]

From the episode, "Patterns of Force" in season 2.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was something Westmore mentioned in one of his makeup books if I recall. (It's been about 20 years since I read it. It's sitting in a crate 1000 miles away) The book was talking about use of colors in makeup effects and one of the side stories was the TOS production crew was not allowed to show Spock bleeding, in part because it was felt that it would not look quite believable.


I could swear it is one of Westmore's Makeup and FX books. He (or whoever wrote the text?) mentioned that in the earlier days they avoided Spock bleeding because the color just never looked right. He was talking about how colors work with regards to fx makeup. And how and why blood can be believable. It's been over 20 years since I read the book. (probably still sitting in a crate at my parents). The information in it well predates Enterprise or nuTrek. I don't think it was a Star Trek specific book. It was a big thick book. Almost like a textbook or guidebook on theatrical makeup effects. It showed a bunch of Star Trek subjects including the Borg and Data's electronics (whiz bang cutting edge at the time), but I don't think it was all Trek.

as for colored welts on Spock following being whiped? I confess I don't remember ever noticing that. I'll take your word for it.

Ninja'd (photobucket was sluggish)
A picture is worth a thousand words

 

[BillJ]

Ninja'd (photobucket was sluggish)

You ain't kidding. It took close to ten minutes for me to upload the image. I brought groceries in from the car while it was uploading.

 

[BillJ]

From "The Defector" (TNG season 3)...

 

[Kor]

I find it amusing that photobucket gives you the option of purchasing a calendar or a holiday greeting card with the picture on it.

Kor

 

[CorporalClegg]

The many faces of James Sloyan calendar. I'd buy one.

 

[BillJ]

From "The Enemy" (TNG season 3)...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Is he losing his wig?

 

[BillJ]

Is he losing his wig?

Sure looks like it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The Hair Club For Romulans...

 

[JoeP]

I'm not only the Praetor, I'm also a client.....