CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar
- Thread starter Richard Baker
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I have no problem with businesses saying "if enough customers sign up, we'll do X."
What I have a problem with is, "If enough customers sign up, we'll try to do X, and if we fail, you won't get your money back."
Is Cushman involved again?
I don't have a problem with "We'll try..." Kickstarter and Indie Go Go are donations. Right there, your comparison isn't quite right: they aren't customers. They are donating to help kick start (yes, pun intended) a project or a company. Projects fail, companies fail. They are always risks--and that's why they are listed.
This, of course, doesn't excuse people from wasting donation money. Like on carpet.
My wife and I used Kickstarter to make a short movie, about getting pregnant. And one of the risks: she was very pregnant when she directed the film. She could've gone into labor the week before or during the shoot.
I DO think people think of themselves as customers for a kickstarter. And many projects treat them that way (like magazines or posters, etc.) But, from what I understand, Kickstarter discourages ongoing "business" like behavior through them.
Personally, I think fan films shouldn't do crowdsourcing. If it's a labor of love, it's YOUR labor of love. And since you don't own the copyright, you put a LOT of people at risk for losing that money. It's negligent.
I don't mind the idea of crowdfunding, but it still makes me a little nervous. The idea of giving money to people I don't know based purely on something they say they want to do or make just isn't something I'm comfortable with. If there was a 100% guarantee that the thing you are funding will be made in the exact form they say it will I might be more open to it, but there really isn't.
That's a *really* good question.
Another one: who would have first priority claim on any awarded funds in that scenario: the donors, or CBS? 'cause there ain't gonna be enough to pay both.
The employees who are owed back pay would have first crack at the remaining funds. Maybe some one who deferred their salary...someone who's salary hasn't been disclosed?
And that's what I have a problem with. Donations are fine for non-profit organizations, but have no place in actual for-profit business IMO. Shifting business risk onto the consumer is NOT OK in my book. To ask someone to donate to you, so you can make money for only your own benefit, is wrong.
If I'm taking the risk, then I should damn well hold some stock in the company, so I at least get some of the potential benefit for actually taking that risk. And I do not count "delivered product" as potential benefit.
JMHO.
from May, 2013 Forbes:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocentral/2013/05/15/the-ten-commandments-of-crowdfunding/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocentral/2013/05/15/the-ten-commandments-of-crowdfunding/
Pennsylvania Attorney General files consumer protection lawsuit against Kickstarter half million funded project that failed to deliver shirts (December 2015):
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...iled-crowdfunding-campaign-radiate-athletics/
the Axanar Indiegogo promised any number of swag items such as tunics, competed feature dvds, signed cast photos, etc (see NONDELETED page here https://webcache.googleusercontent....m/projects/axanar+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#/ ) indiegogo has deleted it from their site..
so... one could imagine Axanar might face similar initiative not from a class action lawsuit but from the state of California itself, if the production is stopped.
I could see Axanar getting out of this corner by making a deal with the studios to drop all star trek references, pay the studio the value obtained from donations and spent on material gain (Ares studio buildout, salaries, expenses), destroying all sets and costumes and scripts with trek IP, and then, offering refunds to any donors who don't want Ares to make a non-trek film.
a lot of ifs...
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...iled-crowdfunding-campaign-radiate-athletics/
the Axanar Indiegogo promised any number of swag items such as tunics, competed feature dvds, signed cast photos, etc (see NONDELETED page here https://webcache.googleusercontent....m/projects/axanar+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#/ ) indiegogo has deleted it from their site..
so... one could imagine Axanar might face similar initiative not from a class action lawsuit but from the state of California itself, if the production is stopped.
I could see Axanar getting out of this corner by making a deal with the studios to drop all star trek references, pay the studio the value obtained from donations and spent on material gain (Ares studio buildout, salaries, expenses), destroying all sets and costumes and scripts with trek IP, and then, offering refunds to any donors who don't want Ares to make a non-trek film.
a lot of ifs...
They really are the gift that keeps on giving, aren't they? Thanks for providing the link, Bill. You gotta love the captions under the pics - "Jeff's wife is working, too!"
I don't know about you guys but when I'm doing work like this (where any extra pair of hands is a big help) there's nothing more I enjoy than somebody taking a bunch of pictures of me working and talking about how much work I'm doing.
and also in Washington state in 2014: http://www.geekwire.com/2014/attorney-general-asylum-playing-cards-crowdfunded-project/
the Washington State AG: quote: We hope this sends a message to other potential project creators to take their responsibilities seriously. We look forward to bringing more cases, if necessary, to protect consumers.
the Washington State AG: quote: We hope this sends a message to other potential project creators to take their responsibilities seriously. We look forward to bringing more cases, if necessary, to protect consumers.
and a 2015 UK case for a failed Kickstarter, disputing the theory that funders have no standing in a bankruptcy of a project: http://anothercrowd.com/content/lawsuit-likely-over-failed-crowdfunding-project
wonder how many donors there are in the UK or other countries where initiatives could arise?
wonder how many donors there are in the UK or other countries where initiatives could arise?
I think we all understand that if donors wanted, there is action they can take. Question is, what are the odds action is actually taken, either by donors, the state, or by Kickstarter-- or someone else?
As much as a bunch of asshats as their supporters generally have been, i'd still hate to see them all stiffed, and if -- as we expect-- the project is shut down, I find it hard to believe that Axanar will do the right thing and refund donor money voluntarily. More likely they'll continue to publicly antagonize the powers that be; right now it's CBS/Para, but eventually it could turn to the court system, then Kickstarter, and ultimately their own fanbase.
As much as a bunch of asshats as their supporters generally have been, i'd still hate to see them all stiffed, and if -- as we expect-- the project is shut down, I find it hard to believe that Axanar will do the right thing and refund donor money voluntarily. More likely they'll continue to publicly antagonize the powers that be; right now it's CBS/Para, but eventually it could turn to the court system, then Kickstarter, and ultimately their own fanbase.
Yes, inside the bubble of so many donors and the ability to use their voices, my best guess is that if tptb in the project decide the legal strategy, it will be Corbomite city with the threat of making the general fanbase turn away in embarrassment at the spectacle of costumed agitators picketing for "true Star Trek" and the JJVerse. After all, if you haven't released a script and haven't shot anything, fans can hypothesize the ideal they wish to project onto the project.
Here's an idea.. publish the script. See if everyone is so awed that they all band together to make it happen.
Here's an idea.. publish the script. See if everyone is so awed that they all band together to make it happen.
would an injunction mean they would have to stop spending the crowd sourced funds, ie on the facility lease and improvements, and only would have to stop working on the specific activities that violate IP? Or would it lock up the money and facility paid for with it?
sorry no edit button yet..
intended wording of above:
would an injunction mean they would have to stop spending the crowd sourced funds, ie on the facility lease and improvements, or only that they would have to stop working on the specific activities that violate IP?
intended wording of above:
would an injunction mean they would have to stop spending the crowd sourced funds, ie on the facility lease and improvements, or only that they would have to stop working on the specific activities that violate IP?
You "Newbie" types probably don't know this yet but the board moderators tend to frown on multiple sequential posts without waiting for others to reply. You can also reply to multiple messages in a single reply. I'd be happy to explain if anyone needs some pointers.
I've posted a comment to today's Axanar blog and have received a reply from AP:
Has the March delay been announced anywhere? Also, that "you need to trust us" thing isn't reassuring at all.
Way to bury the lede...
Thanks for taking the time to read this reply on a comment to a blog entry about carpet. Oh yes, the reason you're all here isn't happening for another month.
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