Fridays' Child and the Prime Directive

[TOSalltheway]

Can anyone explain just what the Federation was doing negotiating with the Capellans, a pre warp society, for their minerals ?

Does the Prime Directive prohibit this ?

We can't blame it on the fact that the Klingons already showed them that there were other more advanced civilizations as the episode clealry demonstrated that the presence of a Klingon took every one by surprise.

 

[Jose Tyler]

Maybe Capella is along a trade route and other worlds have been visiting planet for years. Space is a big place with other spacefaring cultures. I would guess that the Prime Directive doesn't prohibit a visit once the cat is out of the preverbal bag when a culture knows about other warp capable cultures. The Federation, in their do-gooder kind of way, probably keeps track of these planets to make sure they don't fall under the influence of bad actors. Hence McCoy's earlier stay with a medical team.

 

[BillJ]

Maybe Capella is along a trade route and other worlds have been visiting planet for years. Space is a big place with other spacefaring cultures. I would guess that the Prime Directive doesn't prohibit a visit once the cat is out of the preverbal bag when a culture knows about other warp capable cultures. The Federation, in their do-gooder kind of way, probably keeps track of these planets to make sure they don't fall under the influence of bad actors. Hence McCoy's earlier stay with a medical team.

This.

 

[The Lensman]

Can anyone explain just what the Federation was doing negotiating with the Capellans, a pre warp society, for their minerals ?

Does the Prime Directive prohibit this ?

We can't blame it on the fact that the Klingons already showed them that there were other more advanced civilizations as the episode clealry demonstrated that the presence of a Klingon took every one by surprise.

I don't recall the "pre-warp" thing being a condition of the PD in the original show. IIRC that's more of a TNG era thing.

 

[TOSalltheway]

True, Pre-warp is TNG. That being said the Caperalans were pre industrialization. I realize that McCoy had visitied the world before but obviously it was quite recently.

 

[BillJ]

True, Pre-warp is TNG. That being said the Caperalans were pre industrialization. I realize that McCoy had visitied the world before but obviously it was quite recently.

Maybe the Capellans were more advanced than we give them credit for? They were obviously a unified people, to at least some degree. Or else, Kirk could have simply went to another tribe and negotiated rights to mine topoline in a different area.

Not all advances are technological.

 

[Christopher]

It could be that Capella was contacted before the Prime Directive took effect. Or that someone other than the Federation made first contact, so the "damage" was already done when the Federation came along.

Then again, it could be that the UFP bent the rules because of Capella's strategic importance. The 23rd-century UFP seemed to have pretty loose standards in that regard, e.g. accepting Ardana as a member without checking to see whether it had banned slavery. Any world that had resources they found valuable seemed to be exempt from the normal rules.

 

[johnnybear]

I always believed that McCoy was on Capella at the time of The Klingon invasion of Organia! Because by the time of that episode he was very much a part of the trio and yet he was absent for one of their most dangerous missions!
JB

 

[Timo]

That's a neat idea! Then again, McCoy had a past of doing his own thing in TAS "Albatross", too, and John Bryne gets good mileage of similar stories post-TOS, pre-TMP. And the recent movies suggest he got that LtCmdr braid we see him wearing in the Capella records early on in his Starfleet career.

I don't recall the "pre-warp" thing being a condition of the PD in the original show. IIRC that's more of a TNG era thing.

It isn't even a well-established or explicated TNG condition, but more like a coincidence: if a culture already has warp, it's probably way too late to wonder whether to have first contact with it or not.

Maybe the Capellans were more advanced than we give them credit for? They were obviously a unified people, to at least some degree. Or else, Kirk could have simply went to another tribe and negotiated rights to mine topoline in a different area.

Might be the topaline resources are fairly localized, though. Now that the Federation has the ear of the ruler of this region, Klingons may well support neighboring tribes in hopes of starting an "indigenous" campaign of conquest. But then again, they might not bother, having seen the degree to which the UFP was willing to affect local affairs.

There's little to indicate an ability for the locals to hold together a global Capellan empire. These people don't even appear to have invented the wheel, or any sort of vehicular or mounted transportation, or that would have become an issue during the chase. Sure, there were largish pre-wheel civilizations there on Earth till the 1500s, but nothing approaching a global scale.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Greg Cox]

True, Pre-warp is TNG. That being said the Caperalans were pre industrialization. I realize that McCoy had visitied the world before but obviously it was quite recently.

As I understand, the PD in TOS was more about not meddling with other cultures than hiding from them. It was about discouraging colonialism and missionaries and such.

 

[Noname Given]

Can anyone explain just what the Federation was doing negotiating with the Capellans, a pre warp society, for their minerals ?

Does the Prime Directive prohibit this ?

We can't blame it on the fact that the Klingons already showed them that there were other more advanced civilizations as the episode clealry demonstrated that the presence of a Klingon took every one by surprise.

I don't recall the "pre-warp" thing being a condition of the PD in the original show. IIRC that's more of a TNG era thing.

Actually "Pre-Warp/No knowledge of spaceflight" WAS the main and only condition of the PD in the TOS era. TNG started applying the PD to "any non-member Federation world" which was ridiculous.

Also in the TOS era, the Federation wasn't some utopian organization that was 100% strict with the PD (or other General Orders) - in other words if a planet had something the Federation needed (in the Capellans case, the mineral used in Federation life support systems, if I recall the episode correctly); the Federation Council and Starfleet had no issues waving the PD; which was the case here.

 

[Timo]

Actually "Pre-Warp/No knowledge of spaceflight" WAS the main and only condition of the PD in the TOS era.

We never heard such a condition mentioned. Nor was it upheld, or failure to uphold it commented on in any way. Kirk freely mingled with Tyree's people in the "A Private Little War" backstory, traded with the Capellans here, and so forth.

In "Bread and Circuses", we hear (partially) what it means when the PD is in full force: this includes the landing party trying to conceal its origins and mission. But we get little idea of what makes the PD go to full force.

McCoy: "Jim, is there anything at all we know about this planet?"
Kirk: "The SS Beagle was the first ship to make a survey of this star sector when it disappeared."
Spock: "Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?"

It sounds that PD is in full force on worlds that have not been properly surveyed yet. Which makes sense: alleviate the conditions on secrecy and care once more is learned, but not before. Absolutely nothing is mentioned of the locals' ability to travel in space, though, or of their ability to contact other civilizations, let alone of whether they have already done so or not.

the Federation Council and Starfleet had no issues waving the PD; which was the case here.

We never heard of anything waived. Might be the PD simply doesn't apply here, for whatever reason. TNG was full of episodes where contact with primitives did not involve the complete set of PD complications, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Actually "Pre-Warp/No knowledge of spaceflight" WAS the main and only condition of the PD in the TOS era.

No, in fact, that provision was never explicitly stated in TOS. (See also)

From "Return of the Archons":

SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?

From "Bread and Circuses":

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?
KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.
MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

True, that does mention not giving knowledge of other worlds to a society that lacks it, but that's not about warp drive, just about having the knowledge of alien life. You don't need warp drive to know there are aliens -- see the Capellans, the Eminians, and various others. It wasn't until TNG that "unaware of other worlds and species" was glossed into "pre-warp." Indeed, it wasn't until "First Contact" in TNG's fourth season that the invention of warp drive was defined as the qualification for contact.

But "The Magicks of Megas-tu" makes it explicit that the Prime Directive is not limited to pre-warp cultures:

Look, look at General Order number One. No starship may interfere with the normal development of anyalien life or society.

"Any alien life." Nothing about warp capability.

TNG started applying the PD to "any non-member Federation world" which was ridiculous.

Of course it isn't ridiculous. Warp drive has jack-all to do with it. As Greg said, the PD was meant as a counter to cultural imperialism and colonialism, the idea that one society had the right to impose its will on others "for their own good." History had shown the damage caused by colonialism and coercive religious conversion, not only in dealings with less advanced cultures, but in meddling with equally advanced cultures, like the damage that British imperialism did in the Middle East, India, and China. (Not to mention that, contrary to colonialist myth, the Native Americans were comparable in advancement to the early European settlers, just specializing in different technologies and methods.)

So the Prime Directive was never meant to be anything as shallow as "Psst, hey, guys, don't tell them there's life on other worlds." The point is to prohibit Starfleet officers from forcing their beliefs and values on any other society, because history has shown how disastrous that is. It's about respecting other cultures' right to make their own choices, and it's absurd to say that right somehow ceases to exist on the day a culture invents warp drive. It just means that, once they reach that stage, the parameters are different. You don't reveal yourself to pre-contact worlds because they wouldn't be able to compete on a level playing field and could be easily overwhelmed, so the risk of disrupting their cultures is too great (or so the theory goes). But it's still possible to disrupt warp-capable cultures, the same way that Earth nations have disrupted each other for millennia, by cultural or military imperialism or economic manipulation or religious oppression. The Prime Directive is the rule that keeps the Federation from thinking it's entitled to tell other people how to live. And that means "Don't force the Klingons to give up being warriors" and "Don't take sides in somebody else's civil war" just as much as it means "Don't force a world to discover alien life before it can figure that out on its own."

 

[Timo]

Indeed, it wasn't until "First Contact" in TNG's fourth season that the invention of warp drive was defined as the qualification for contact.

I wouldn't glorify the qualification with the definite article. It's merely that making first contact is, in the best of cases, only possible until the locals invent their own warp drive. That is, it's the back limit for making contact on the UFP's own terms.

The UFP can make contact earlier on, too, such as with the Edo who were described as not knowing of the UFP but not established as being ignorant of space aliens in general. That contact would have to wait until the last possible moment, that is, invention of warp drive or subspace radio (the latter appears to be more difficult to do than the former!), is not decidedly established.

As Greg said, the PD was meant as a counter to cultural imperialism and colonialism, the idea that one society had the right to impose its will on others "for their own good."

...Although as it only ties the hands of the Starfleet soldiers, doesn't impact on the random civilian, and is within the powers of the UFP Council to choose to obey or disregard as a guideline in interstellar politics, it doesn't really work too well to that end. But it does keep the people with the greatest potential for offense, the commanders of powerful armed starships, from playing god too often to their superiors' liking.

It's about respecting other cultures' right to make their own choices, and it's absurd to say that right somehow ceases to exist on the day a culture invents warp drive.

Well, not necessarily. Once that invention is made, the culture loses factual independence and becomes merged with the interstellar whole; it's just a matter of time after this that the culture is diluted out of existence. The intellectual value of the culture to the UFP takes a great plunge once the natives stop thinking for themselves and become fascinated with the glittering gadgets of their betters.

It's not merely possible to disrupt cultures at every stage of their existence. It's impossible not to! But if the Bor... I mean, the UFP want to make any use of a culture at all, it's best to strike at the warp juncture, when the natives have done their most inventing and haven't had an opportunity to self-corrupt yet.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

Actually "Pre-Warp/No knowledge of spaceflight" WAS the main and only condition of the PD in the TOS era.

No, in fact, that provision was never explicitly stated in TOS. (See also)

From "Return of the Archons":

SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?

From "Bread and Circuses":
True, that does mention not giving knowledge of other worlds to a society that lacks it, but that's not about warp drive, just about having the knowledge of alien life. You don't need warp drive to know there are aliens -- see the Capellans, the Eminians, and various others. It wasn't until TNG that "unaware of other worlds and species" was glossed into "pre-warp." Indeed, it wasn't until "First Contact" in TNG's fourth season that the invention of warp drive was defined as the qualification for contact.

But "The Magicks of Megas-tu" makes it explicit that the Prime Directive is not limited to pre-warp cultures:

Look, look at General Order number One. No starship may interfere with the normal development of anyalien life or society.

"Any alien life." Nothing about warp capability.

TNG started applying the PD to "any non-member Federation world" which was ridiculous.

Of course it isn't ridiculous. Warp drive has jack-all to do with it. As Greg said, the PD was meant as a counter to cultural imperialism and colonialism, the idea that one society had the right to impose its will on others "for their own good." History had shown the damage caused by colonialism and coercive religious conversion, not only in dealings with less advanced cultures, but in meddling with equally advanced cultures, like the damage that British imperialism did in the Middle East, India, and China. (Not to mention that, contrary to colonialist myth, the Native Americans were comparable in advancement to the early European settlers, just specializing in different technologies and methods.)

So the Prime Directive was never meant to be anything as shallow as "Psst, hey, guys, don't tell them there's life on other worlds." The point is to prohibit Starfleet officers from forcing their beliefs and values on any other society, because history has shown how disastrous that is. It's about respecting other cultures' right to make their own choices, and it's absurd to say that right somehow ceases to exist on the day a culture invents warp drive. It just means that, once they reach that stage, the parameters are different. You don't reveal yourself to pre-contact worlds because they wouldn't be able to compete on a level playing field and could be easily overwhelmed, so the risk of disrupting their cultures is too great (or so the theory goes). But it's still possible to disrupt warp-capable cultures, the same way that Earth nations have disrupted each other for millennia, by cultural or military imperialism or economic manipulation or religious oppression. The Prime Directive is the rule that keeps the Federation from thinking it's entitled to tell other people how to live. And that means "Don't force the Klingons to give up being warriors" and "Don't take sides in somebody else's civil war" just as much as it means "Don't force a world to discover alien life before it can figure that out on its own."

As referenced from the OP from "Bread and Circuses":

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?

KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.

MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

^^^^
pretty much implies that it mostly applies to pre-warp civilizations; and AS ENFORCED (or not) in various episodes like

"Friday's Child" which I was discussing in my reply

Elaan of Troyius It's stated in the episode teh Elasians and Troyians only have sub-light capability as per Scotty's line of:

SCOTT: "Well, I suppose, lassie, that even our impulse engines must seem fast compared to your nuclear propulsion units. "

it sure comes across in TOS of only applying to pre-warp cultures (unless they have something the Federation needs; or the culture has already been 'contaminated'; and the Feds deem it necessary to try and mitigate said contamination.

In "Elaan of Troyius" it really appears the PD was waived because Starfleet knew the plant of Troyius and perhaps even Elas were RICH in dilithium crystals.

In contrast during TNG's run, MANY times Captain Picard seemed to invoke the PD at the drop of a hat and in situations that could end up being VERY BAD for the future of the Federation (TNG's "I Borg" comes to mind - but hell, as I recall, he got chewed out by an Admiral for that in a later episode - so maybe it was just Picard's, and not the Federation Council/Starfleet who was broadening the application of the PD in the 24th century.)

Still it comes across as heavily implied in the TOS era that the FD applies to pre-warp civilizations who have yet to venture into deep space and find there are other life-forms in the galaxy.

 

[Christopher]

As referenced from the OP from "Bread and Circuses":

SPOCK: Then the Prime Directive is in full force, Captain?

KIRK: No identification of self or mission. No interference with the social development of said planet.

MCCOY: No references to space, or the fact that there are other worlds, or more advanced civilisations.

^^^^
pretty much implies that it mostly applies to pre-warp civilizations;

You must not have read my whole post. I quoted that passage myself and explained why it doesn't mean what you suggest.

Elaan of Troyius It's stated in the episode teh Elasians and Troyians only have sub-light capability as per Scotty's line of:

SCOTT: "Well, I suppose, lassie, that even our impulse engines must seem fast compared to your nuclear propulsion units. "

But that is not a Prime Directive episode. On the contrary, the Federation is directly intervening in both worlds' affairs. The episode does not contain a single mention of the terms "Prime Directive," "General Order One," or "non-interference." So I don't know why you'd bring it up here.

Still it comes across as heavily implied in the TOS era that the FD applies to pre-warp civilizations who have yet to venture into deep space and find there are other life-forms in the galaxy.

As I pointed out in my previous post, "pre-contact" is not the same thing as "pre-warp." There are many ways a civilization could learn about aliens before it invents warp drive -- picking up their radio transmissions, detecting them with telescopes, traveling through space in sublight starships, being visited by aliens that don't honor the Prime Directive. Therefore, TOS itself never established warp drive in particular as the key qualification for contact. That arbitrary and rather silly standard was the invention of TNG's "First Contact." It was never part of Star Trek lore until 1991, just about exactly halfway through TNG's run.

 

[Noname Given]

Elaan of Troyius It's stated in the episode teh Elasians and Troyians only have sub-light capability as per Scotty's line of:

But that is not a Prime Directive episode. On the contrary, the Federation is directly intervening in both worlds' affairs. The episode does not contain a single mention of the terms "Prime Directive," "General Order One," or "non-interference." So I don't know why you'd bring it up here.

By that definition - neither is Friday's Child as the actual Prime Directive and/or Non-Interference Directive was mentioned in that episode either, yet that's the episode that started the discussion in this thread. yes, Kirk states:

KIRK: The Earth Federation offers one other thing, Akaar. Our laws. And the highest of all our laws states that your world is yours and will always remain yours. This differs us from the Klingons. Their empire is made up of conquered worlds. They take what they want by arms and force.

But he's not referencing the Prime Directive, he's stating what will happen if/when the Cappelan Tyr agrees to join the Federation.

IMO - the situation in "Elaan of Troyius" is similar in that it's pretty clear by comments in the episode that the Federation wouldn't be involved if there wasn't something they wanted there.

 

[Greg Cox]

"MIrror, Mirror" is another case where the Federation appears to be negotiating for mining rights with a non-space-faring culture. Although, to be fair, the episode is a little vague about how technologically advanced the Halkans (sp?) are.

It should be noted that TOS was not always consistent about this. In "The Omega Glory," for instance, the Prime Directive is described as being an absolute principle of supreme importance, but, in other eps, it's more "don't play God" as opposed to "hands off!"

I mean, a strict, super-literal interpretation of the PD runs counter to Enterprise's stated mission to seek out new life-forms and explore strange new world and civilizations. The opening spiel doesn't go "to explore only warp-capable worlds and civiilizations."

Poking around and saying hello is one thing. Teaching them to be Nazis or mobsters is another story.

One of the structural problems VOYAGER had was that, thanks to a much broader definition of the PD, their mission was basically to get home while having as little impact on the Delta Quadrant as possible.

Which is laudable in theory, but not exactly primed for drama.

"Tune next week as our heroes try once again not to make any difference wherever they go!"

 

[TOSalltheway]

Thanks for everyones comments. Great to hear such intelligent points of view and you have given me much to think about.

 

[Christopher]

It should be noted that TOS was not always consistent about this. In "The Omega Glory," for instance, the Prime Directive is described as being an absolute principle of supreme importance, but, in other eps, it's more "don't play God" as opposed to "hands off!"

I mean, a strict, super-literal interpretation of the PD runs counter to Enterprise's stated mission to seek out new life-forms and explore strange new world and civilizations. The opening spiel doesn't go "to explore only warp-capable worlds and civiilizations."

Poking around and saying hello is one thing. Teaching them to be Nazis or mobsters is another story.

One of the structural problems VOYAGER had was that, thanks to a much broader definition of the PD, their mission was basically to get home while having as little impact on the Delta Quadrant as possible.

Which is laudable in theory, but not exactly primed for drama.

"Tune next week as our heroes try once again not to make any difference wherever they go!"

It was TNG's "Pen Pals" that first turned the Prime Directive into a fanatically strict hands-off rule, to the point of actually requiring that they let a civilization die rather than reveal their existence. I mean, how does that make sense? Let them be destroyed rather than risk damaging them? It made for a nice scene where the characters debated the ethics, but the underlying premise is utterly insane.

The fundamental problem with the 24th-century PD is the assumption that the "natural development" of a culture is one devoid of any outside influence -- that any knowledge not originating locally constitutes "contamination." And that's bull. It's perfectly natural for cultures to interact with one another, to learn from and borrow ideas from one another. The cultures that have the most exposure to outside ideas are generally the most dynamic, innovative, and prosperous. It only becomes a problem if one culture tries to force its beliefs, customs, and laws on another culture. That's what the Prime Directive should forbid. Not any contact at all, just coercive influence or deliberate imposition.