If Starfleet Scanned The Narda And Reversed Engineered It ....

[TRON JA307020]

to build new starships. Why didn't the Enterprise or any of the other starships get in some good shots. The writers of the movie basically said that the reason the enterprise looked so much more advance then the TOS enterprise was that they Starfleet had scanned the narda and the engineers reversed engineered the narda to incorporate the advances into their starships. The thing is it doesn't seem that they reversed engineered anything that helped them against the narda. I wonder if they really thought of this when they wrote the movies or just came up with this explanation to quell nitpickers such as myself. What do you all think?

 

[BillJ]

That presupposes the idea that the information they got from the Narada was complete. Maybe some things they got better scans of than others. The Enterprise did look to hold up better than her sister ships sent to Vulcan. Nero wiped all seven out in just a few moments.

 

[TRON JA307020]

That presupposes the idea that the information they got from the Narada was complete. Maybe some things they got better scans of than others. The Enterprise did look to hold up better than her sister ships sent to Vulcan. Nero wiped all seven out in just a few moments.

But in the movie he was going to wipe out the ship until he noticed it was the enterprise. At that point he decided not to destroy it because he wanted young nuspock to live to see the destruction of nuvulcan as he forced prime spock to also see the destruction. Yeah they could have gotten partial scans but it looks like they didn't get any upgrades that helped the enterprise at all. I think if the ship wasn't named enterprise it would have been space flotsam.

 

[Dukhat]

What do you all think?

I think you need to stop constantly making new topics about every little miniscule thing about the Abrams films you don't like/understand/want to troll about, and just either enjoy it for what it is, or hate it and never speak of it again. Or better yet, start posting in other parts of this forum so that it doesn't look like you're here just to spam the NuTrek board.

But, to answer your question: There is no canon evidence that the Narada was scanned and its technology reverse-engineered to build new starships. That was just some idea mentioned by some guy somewhere. If you have proof that the writers of the film stated this, please enlighten us. And even if they did, it did not appear in the finished film. For all we know, the Prime universe also had ships like the NuEnterprise in the 2250's, we just never saw them.

 

[BillJ]

But in the movie he was going to wipe out the ship until he noticed it was the enterprise. At that point he decided not to destroy it because he wanted young nuspock to live to see the destruction of nuvulcan as he forced prime spock to also see the destruction. Yeah they could have gotten partial scans but it looks like they didn't get any upgrades that helped the enterprise at all. I think if the ship wasn't named enterprise it would have been space flotsam.

But the Enterprise did survive the initial assault from the Narada. Nero wiped out seven starships in just a few moments and 47 Klingon ships the day before.

So I'd say there were some structural integrity improvements that made it into the new design.

 

[Ithekro]

If Starfleet got enough information from USS Kelvin's scans to begin any sort of reverse engineering, it would be on technology that is probably 150 years ahead of them, plus whatever else Nero had slapped onto his ship after Romulas was destroyed. There is a lot of science and engineering there that would take decades to figure out, and then decades more to reconstruct. In addition to being tech from another civiliation that Starfleet has not had contact with since the end of the Romulan War, plus what ever other alien tech the ship has.

If they did manage to gain some technical information, it may have been propulsion related. Starfleet ships sent with Enterprise looked to be not much more advanced than the USS Kelvin of 25 years prior, and Kelvin looked to be an older ship in 2233. She could easily have been a 2200s design replacing whatever replaced the ship that replaced the NX-class ships back when the Federation was founded.

That Starfleet was still using Kelvin style designs prior to Enterprise being launched would mean that either Starfleet spent a lot of time doing the reverse engineering, and did not proceed on the lines that would have resulted in the Prime Universe's Constitution-class starships, thus keeping the old ships around longer, or the early versions of the reverse engineering required large hulls, so the Kelvin type hull was retained for the new ships as it was quicker to get into service in by the 2240s. As the tech improved, eventually someone designed a new large starship hull that became their version of the Constitution-class in the mid-2250s.

However these improvements would not be enough against a ship that is still over 100 years ahead of them in technology. Especially when ambushed. Enterprise did better when she was fully prepared to fight.

 

[TRON JA307020]

What do you all think?

I think you need to stop constantly making new topics about every little miniscule thing about the Abrams films you don't like/understand/want to troll about, and just either enjoy it for what it is, or hate it and never speak of it again. Or better yet, start posting in other parts of this forum so that it doesn't look like you're here just to spam the NuTrek board.

But, to answer your question: There is no canon evidence that the Narada was scanned and its technology reverse-engineered to build new starships. That was just some idea mentioned by some guy somewhere. If you have proof that the writers of the film stated this, please enlighten us. And even if they did, it did not appear in the finished film. For all we know, the Prime universe also had ships like the NuEnterprise in the 2250's, we just never saw them.

This is not trolling but asking a question on something I didn't get. I believe Orci mentioned that Starfleet reversed engineered scans from the narda. I will try to find the article. I enjoy talking about things like this in ST. Its a ST fans birthright to nitpick. Geez.

 

[-Brett-]

Unless this explanation was uttered in the movie, it doesn't count and the premise of this thread is void.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Unless this explanation was uttered in the movie, it doesn't count and the premise of this thread is void.

Possibly right. I believe Orci was doing a question and answer with fans and mentioned the scanning of the Narda to answer a fans nitpicky question.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I thought it was the comics that introduced the idea.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I thought it was the comics that introduced the idea.

That's possible. I did look at the comics in the comic store but didn't read the whole thing. You might be right. The writers of the comic may have fleshed out why the enterprise took such a change in appearance and used the scanning of the narda as a reason. At least they explained the change. My thinking is that maybe they didn't get much from the scans in terms of weapons. Maybe the scans gave them more information on Warp engine than anything else. That may also explain why the nacelles are so much larger then in previous enterprise incarnations.


Hmmm I think I just answered my own question. LOL!

 

[The Wormhole]

Since Starfleet was never in possession of Narada, it's impossible for them to reverse engineer it. Indeed, "reverse engineering" isn't even the proper term for what is being discussed in this thread.

The theory is that the Kelvin's encounter with and subsequent destruction by Narada was a kind of jolt to the chair for Starfleet causing them to focus on building larger and presumably stronger ships.

Though when you get down to it, 25 years is hardly enough time to significantly upgrade technology to a point where it can take on a pimped out mining ship from over 100 years into the future.

 

[Sindatur]

If Starfleet got enough information from USS Kelvin's scans to begin any sort of reverse engineering, it would be on technology that is probably 150 years ahead of them, plus whatever else Nero had slapped onto his ship after Romulas was destroyed. There is a lot of science and engineering there that would take decades to figure out, and then decades more to reconstruct. In addition to being tech from another civiliation that Starfleet has not had contact with since the end of the Romulan War, plus what ever other alien tech the ship has.

If they did manage to gain some technical information, it may have been propulsion related. Starfleet ships sent with Enterprise looked to be not much more advanced than the USS Kelvin of 25 years prior, and Kelvin looked to be an older ship in 2233. She could easily have been a 2200s design replacing whatever replaced the ship that replaced the NX-class ships back when the Federation was founded.

That Starfleet was still using Kelvin style designs prior to Enterprise being launched would mean that either Starfleet spent a lot of time doing the reverse engineering, and did not proceed on the lines that would have resulted in the Prime Universe's Constitution-class starships, thus keeping the old ships around longer, or the early versions of the reverse engineering required large hulls, so the Kelvin type hull was retained for the new ships as it was quicker to get into service in by the 2240s. As the tech improved, eventually someone designed a new large starship hull that became their version of the Constitution-class in the mid-2250s.

However these improvements would not be enough against a ship that is still over 100 years ahead of them in technology. Especially when ambushed. Enterprise did better when she was fully prepared to fight.

Yea, there's a number of SciFi plots that revolved around Earth/The USA reverse engineering the Roswell crash, still into the 1990s (if not still up to today), so that's a good 50 years.

 

[Dukhat]

The theory is that the Kelvin's encounter with and subsequent destruction by Narada was a kind of jolt to the chair for Starfleet causing them to focus on building larger and presumably stronger ships.

Which was pretty much the reason for the existence of the Vengeance.

Though when you get down to it, 25 years is hardly enough time to significantly upgrade technology to a point where it can take on a pimped out mining ship from over 100 years into the future.

Exactly. And as I stated in another thread, the nuEnterprise wasn't significantly any better at taking on the Narada than any of the other ships. It was only by pure luck that Nero happened to glance at the viewscreen, notice "NCC-1701," and decide to halt his attack. Otherwise the Enterprise would have been destroyed over Vulcan just as easily as the other ships were.

 

[TRON JA307020]

The theory is that the Kelvin's encounter with and subsequent destruction by Narada was a kind of jolt to the chair for Starfleet causing them to focus on building larger and presumably stronger ships.

Which was pretty much the reason for the existence of the Vengeance.

Though when you get down to it, 25 years is hardly enough time to significantly upgrade technology to a point where it can take on a pimped out mining ship from over 100 years into the future.

Exactly. And as I stated in another thread, the nuEnterprise wasn't significantly any better at taking on the Narada than any of the other ships. It was only by pure luck that Nero happened to glance at the viewscreen, notice "NCC-1701," and decide to halt his attack. Otherwise the Enterprise would have been destroyed over Vulcan just as easily as the other ships were.

Pretty much what I said in my second post here.

 

[fireproof78]

While I can't recall the quote you are referring to, I think the idea is that Starfleet took what information they could from the Kelvin attack, and pieced together what they could, technology, historical details, etc, and attempted to improve upon it in anticipation of the next attack.

Also, as any military organization would do, they analyzed the attack, what worked (very little, save for the point defense systems) and what didn't work (everything else, including negotiating). Based upon that information, the new design of starships would be bigger and more powerful to answer such a threat. Obviously, such advancements probably put a hold on a lot of other research, and they only had 25 years to analyze what they had, determine how to counter it, and develop it. Which is why Enterprise is brand new in Trek 09.

 

[Timo]

Everybody here seems to think the Narada was a big deal - but that's because we saw it in a movie. Starfeet doesn't seem to consider it worth much attention, however.

If the new generation of ships (the Enterprise) were actually designed with the Narada threat in mind, surely the issue would have arisen at some point! Especially as the new starship was commanded by the one person in Starfleet who did have at least a passing interest in the Narada incident - Pike had written an academic work on that past battle. Yet there is no indication of such a relationship in the dialogue.

Nothing about the Enterprise appears designed to defeat the Narada, either, or at least none of it is any better than those 25 years ago; Pike's starship fares exactly the same as Robau's. Shields prevent instant annihilation, but can do nothing to stop a piecemeal destruction; phasers in turn easily shoot down all the missiles Nero can fire, as long as those aren't coming straight at the Starfleet ship.

I don't think even the Vengeance owed anything at all to that long-forgotten Kelvin-vs-aliens-somehow-identified-as-Romulans encounter. The motivation for that ship was the Klingon threat, and the means was revealed to be Khan.

Okay, perhaps Starfleet wanted to learn something from that incident. But apparently it could not. Which is easy to understand: even if the Kelvin managed to scan something useful, that information was lost with the starship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think even the Vengeance owed anything at all to that long-forgotten Kelvin-vs-aliens-somehow-identified-as-Romulans encounter. The motivation for that ship was the Klingon threat, and the means was revealed to be Khan.

Marcus explicitly states that both the incident with the Kelvin and the threat of the Klingon Empire was why ships like the Vengeance were needed.

 

[Cyke101]

Reverse-engineering any information from the Narada doesn't make it as potent as the Narada itself. Even in the Prime Universe, the E-D's analysis of the Borg cube didn't do much for Best of Both Worlds. Even the mighty Defiant, which was built specifically in response to the Borg, was nearly destroyed in First Contact.

I imagine that, up to a certain point, you can only reverse-engineer so much. It's not just the tech, but the understanding of such, the ability to operate on such scales, creating the right tools to facilitate construction, et all, and both the Borg and the Narada had at least a lifetime of a headstart past Starfleet.

 

[Timo]

Literally, reverse-engineering the Narada would mean duplicating the technologies of that ship - but Starfleet would not be all that interested in such a thing. Rather, Starfleet would wish to know how to defend itself against said tech. That would include things such as

- determining how hard those missiles hit the shields, to see if ramping up the shields is an option (it probably wasn't - the missiles would go through even if shield strength were increased beyond the means of the 23rd century Starfleet)
- determining how hard it was to shoot down those missiles, to see if it could be done better (there it seems that anti-missile phaser beam strength never was an issue, but targeting accuracy and speed could not be improved much)
- determining how much it would take to hurt the enemy ship itself (an option nobody ever got to use until the climax of the movie)
- determining whether it would be possible to evade the enemy (another option never tried out)

Those things could be done without actually learning anything about how this powerful technology from the future really worked. The first two would mean reading some gauges aboard the Kelvin and then sending that information home aboard a shuttle. The third could perhaps be calculated from data teh shuttles gathered when the Kelvin impacted the Narada. The fourth would be pure guesswork, though. And it all presupposes that data was gathered in the first place, and was successfully transferred to the shuttles; a lot could have gone wrong there.

Marcus explicitly states that both the incident with the Kelvin and the threat of the Klingon Empire was why ships like the Vengeance were needed.

Dang. We really need an online transcript of the movie...

It doesn't make much sense that the loss of a single starship to an infinitely superior enemy would jolt Starfleet. Aren't there any Space Amoebae or Antimatter Clouds or NOMADs or Ancient Gods out there in this timeline?

Timo Saloniemi