Sounds good to me.
I know this is silly, but I would like to have seen the Enterprise encounter the Old Ones out in space.
Space Mountains of Madness
Origins of Redjac
- Thread starter Hando
- Start date
Sounds good to me.
I know this is silly, but I would like to have seen the Enterprise encounter the Old Ones out in space.
Space Mountains of Madness
This is possible but a bit unlikely, as Hengist would be hard pressed to be at all the locations (such as the basement where Scotty supposedly was alone with the lass doing the psychotricorder analysis). OTOH, Hengist's body could have been dumped at virtually any nook or cranny by Redjac for the time it took to possess Scotty or McCoy and have them commit the knifings and then go amnesiac.
Yet how would Scotty have accessed the murder weapon? It would seem necessary for Hengist to deliver that to him first. Which means Hengist could also have done the actual stabbing in the first murder at least.
We should consider that Redjac would know what it was doing. Framing certain individuals and then giving them the perfect alibi would help it continue the murder spree. So it would be in the beast's interests to make Hengist a suspect but then make sure he was seen at his office at the times of the murders (even if actually comatose in his chair). And making Scotty the suspect would serve another purpose, as he was an outsider and would misdirect the investigations in another way. Plus, Redjac supposedly wishes to leave a location after committing about half a dozen murders on the average; it was nearing that score already, and might have been preparing the Enterprise as its getaway vehicle by framing Scotty.
Timo Saloniemi
A curious thing about Redjac, and also the Denevan creatures from Operation Annihilate: they were both, by all accounts, travelling in straight lines through the galaxy, from planet to planet. Did they each have destinations in mind?
It seems odd in Wolf in the Fold that Spock mentions that the locations of the mass murders lie in almost a straight line between Earth and Argelius. "As man moved out into the galaxy, he must have taken it with them" is what Kirk surmised. I doubt that man's outward travels were (or will be) restricted to a straigh-line path, so was there a reason for this?
Both episodes catch up with their respective antagonists after they'd been doing their thing for at least centuries, so it seems possible that there is more to their travels than just plain travelling. I'm not saying the two are connected with each other, just that their stories are long ones about which we only know of the here and now of it.
Where could they have been going?
It seems odd in Wolf in the Fold that Spock mentions that the locations of the mass murders lie in almost a straight line between Earth and Argelius. "As man moved out into the galaxy, he must have taken it with them" is what Kirk surmised. I doubt that man's outward travels were (or will be) restricted to a straigh-line path, so was there a reason for this?
Both episodes catch up with their respective antagonists after they'd been doing their thing for at least centuries, so it seems possible that there is more to their travels than just plain travelling. I'm not saying the two are connected with each other, just that their stories are long ones about which we only know of the here and now of it.
Where could they have been going?
Well, the Old Ones were mentioned in Bloch's "What Are Little Girls Made Of?":
And, different Old Ones were mentioned in Bloch's "Catspaw":
While Trek often gives the impression that every star in the galaxy has a planetary system containing at least one duplicate Earth, the truth might be that suitable worlds are still few and far in between. Perhaps a "straight line" means the path formed by neighboring suitable worlds, and such paths meander through an otherwise barren galaxy in a fashion that results in at least short stretches that can be interpreted as more or less straight?
It would be possible to predict that a menace that came from Alpha via Beta and Gamma will next move to Delta, not because this is literally a beeline, but because the closest (and only) star system that features a Class M planet in the hemisphere of sky opposite from Beta as viewed from Gamma is Delta. That is, there's a path drawn in the sky already, and the monster isn't creating it, but making apparent use of it.
Agreed. The DDM is no doubt a similar case; the Space Amoeba, likewise. These creatures move from star to star, not doubling back, and only first being observed when they enter the patrol area of a Starfleet cruiser.
But that may well be observer bias. Other civilizations have no doubt encountered these creatures in a similar manner, seeing how they appear from the depths of space and seem to mercilessly head for the center of the local civilization. But that's not because the creature would have a goal. It's because the civilization stands in its way. When it passes through, it creates the impression it's hell-bent on harming the civilization - but every civilization in its path gets that mistaken impression.
If these things had a goal and started out recently, say, at historical Earth, they would probably be going faster and faster as they learn, or grow impatient, or whatever. Or they might slow down. A steady pace, even if it includes regular stops, might suggest a much longer path of which our heroes only recognize a short stretch.
Our heroes terminate a great many such journeys! Is that an exception, or is the galaxy simply so vast that the monsters can roam for centuries even when they are eminently stoppable by primitives such as 23rd century humans? The Federation might be quite porous to invaders in that century still...
Timo Saloniemi
To the Rim and Zahadum.
Well, the Old Ones were mentioned in Bloch's "What Are Little Girls Made Of?":
And, different Old Ones were mentioned in Bloch's "Catspaw":
Yes, you're right! I guess that whale probe would have had quite a suprise after removing the oceans Cthulu woke up and ruined everything.
Basically, "Wolf in the Fold" leaves it wholly speculative whether Redjac had anything to do with the old London killings - or in fact any of the other murder sprees mentioned.
Might be Redjac is just a copycat. Or then a member of a species that can be found on every planet in the galaxy, entering the minds of innocents and giving them ideas. Some redjacs leave it at that, but others go for the whole possession schtick and risk getting caught. And this particular individual was bored to death (of its victims, of course) on the peaceful Argelius where even very strong suggestions that violence might be fun are damped out by the soft minds of the locals...
Timo Saloniemi
Might be Redjac is just a copycat. Or then a member of a species that can be found on every planet in the galaxy, entering the minds of innocents and giving them ideas. Some redjacs leave it at that, but others go for the whole possession schtick and risk getting caught. And this particular individual was bored to death (of its victims, of course) on the peaceful Argelius where even very strong suggestions that violence might be fun are damped out by the soft minds of the locals...
Timo Saloniemi
No, I'm quite certain the folks behind "Wolf In the Fold" are clearly saying Redjac was Jack the Ripper, Beratis and Kesla. Hengist was a recent emigrant to Argelius, having been there only year. The previous murders took place on Rigel IV, which was where Hengist comes from. The weapon used in the Argelian killings is from Rigel IV.
Yes, Kirk speculates that Redjac followed humanity to the stars, but that's exposition to let the viewer know who Redjac is.
Yes, Kirk speculates that Redjac followed humanity to the stars, but that's exposition to let the viewer know who Redjac is.
I agree. We'll both burn in Trek Hell.
Wayne Alexander was 5 or 6 different characters and he was great every time.
No doubt of that. They just aren't saying it particularly convincingly.
As discussed, they are picking and choosing murder sprees where several women were knifed to death and the assailant never found. They pick less than half a dozen. Nothing much connects the cases they pick, save for the above extremely broad parameters: most humanoids our heroes encounter are humanlike in having violent and frustrated males likely to attack their women, and knives are found everywhere in the Trek universe. It would be pretty miraculous for Rigel IV not to have an utterly unrelated murder spree of that sort in its recent past!
Timo Saloniemi
It's an hour long show.
...But a longer list of preceding cases would be of no help, either. It's any hard evidence of a connection that we lack here, and that they could insert with half a line about whatever trademark signature they want to refer to.
I mean, if they want the Ripper connection, they can always go to the library and tap the resources of Ripper fans, just like they ought to do if using Sherlock Holmes or Lee Oswald or any other notorious character, real or fictional or sort-of-both. Drop a hint some will get even if most won't.
That wouldn't make the episode better drama. But it would be what the episode needs in order to make a convincing case. Yet my argument is not that the episode ought to make a convincing case. It is that the episode works very well even if we don't accept the heroes' hasty conclusion that Redjac is the London killer, and will not be weaker for the admission of its failure to convince.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, if they want the Ripper connection, they can always go to the library and tap the resources of Ripper fans, just like they ought to do if using Sherlock Holmes or Lee Oswald or any other notorious character, real or fictional or sort-of-both. Drop a hint some will get even if most won't.
That wouldn't make the episode better drama. But it would be what the episode needs in order to make a convincing case. Yet my argument is not that the episode ought to make a convincing case. It is that the episode works very well even if we don't accept the heroes' hasty conclusion that Redjac is the London killer, and will not be weaker for the admission of its failure to convince.
Timo Saloniemi
"Wolf in the Fold" is a Star Trek episode dabbling in the paranormal. You can almost hear Leonard Nimoy's voice-over: "This week, on In Search Of: Could unsolved serial killings in history be explained by vicious spirits from another world?"
But the point both in- and out-universe is that there is no need for a signature...
Our heroes do well to blow some smoke over the legal battlefield, so that poor Scotty doesn't get brutally executed by the cruel Argelians. But they don't have to believe in the killer being Jack the Ripper. The audience doesn't need to believe in that, either. The mere "what if..." is enough, both dramatically and in terms of story logic.
It is just worth noticing that the episode quite totally fails to make a case for the Ripper connection. No need to think of excuses for the failure - it's a welcome feature, not a bug!
Timo Saloniemi
It succeeds on the level of an hour long drama that needs to progress it's story to an end where our heroes are back in action in four acts. The whole point of the story is "OMG! Jack the Ripper!!!", so yeah its important that the heroes and audience "believe" it's Jack the Ripper. Otherwise, what's the point? The style of the killings is what drives the point. No need for any more "evidence" than that and Redjac going nuts.
To be spooky?
X-Files always managed to spook us with cases that explicitly lacked solid proof and always had an alternate "Scully" explanation (even if the latter sometimes took more imagination-stretching than the default "Mulder" one). That was important to the drama: that the freaky concept not be spoon-fed, that nothing be forced to be believed.
The episode falls a bit flat if our heroes terminate Jack the Ripper. There's more dramatic payoff if the episode establishes that the universe is full of monsters just waiting to turn us into Jack!
Timo Saloniemi
X-Files always managed to spook us with cases that explicitly lacked solid proof and always had an alternate "Scully" explanation (even if the latter sometimes took more imagination-stretching than the default "Mulder" one). That was important to the drama: that the freaky concept not be spoon-fed, that nothing be forced to be believed.
The episode falls a bit flat if our heroes terminate Jack the Ripper. There's more dramatic payoff if the episode establishes that the universe is full of monsters just waiting to turn us into Jack!
Timo Saloniemi
Well, "Wolf in the Fold" isn't much else. If it's a logical step-by-step monster hunt, then the monster being Jack the Ripper is sorta irrelevant and uninteresting (since it's not him, but some sort of an alien with all-new parameters defined in the episode). If it's a whodunnit, then being supernatural ruins it just like it always does (because the rules go out of the airlock). But it is a good ghost story if it keeps you wondering and not quite believing...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
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