Do you think they'll keep making Abramsverse movies after #3?

[Jedi_Master]

Coming to a cinema near you soon.

Star Trek: The Quest for More Money

As long as it is profitable, they'll want to keep making them. The question is do the actors want to keep making them and if they do what sort of fee/contract do they want.

+1

That is really the sole factor that will determine the amount and cast of future sequels.

 

[M'Sharak]

How so? Or are you saying that things like the eugenics wars in the 90s not happening here prove that Prime is not our timeline?

Yes, that's exactly right, and one would have to have a hole in one's head not to see that.

Well, while you have a point in the fiction, the writers of TOS intended it to be ours and wrote it as if it were.

Er, no they didn't. The writers of "Space Seed" were not being paid to be futurists. They were being paid to write a script for a '60's TV show. It's no different than the writers of "Back to the Future Part II" really believing that we'll have flying cars and hoverboards by 2015. If one thinks those writers honestly believed that what they were writing was actually going to happen in reality, one also needs to check one's head for holes.

So ad hominem are de rigueur here?

You know perfectly well that they are not, but—should you believe that you have been witness to one—you also know that making use of the "Notify Moderator" button (

) on the post in question is the way to go, and that an in-thread call-out is grandstanding, and most assuredly not the way to go.

While I might have phrased them differently, dukhat's remarks were speaking to what he felt to be obvious differences between fictional timelines and our own timeline; ad hominem, they were not.

Perhaps an even better example of differences might have been the episode "Assignment: Earth," in which the following exchange is heard:

KIRK: Mister Spock, historical report.
SPOCK: Current Earth crises would fill a tape bank, Captain. There will be an important assassination today, an equally dangerous government coup in Asia, and, this could be highly critical, the launching of an orbital nuclear warhead platform by the United States countering a similar launch by other powers.
KIRK: Weren't orbital nuclear devices one of this era's greatest problems?
SPOCK: Most definitely. Once the sky was full of orbiting H-bombs, the slightest mistake could have brought one down by accident, setting off a nuclear holocaust.

http://www.chakoteya.net/startrek/55.htm
​

Clearly, the events depicted were not the same ones which took place in our own, real-world 1968.

 

[JWPlatt]

Saying I have a hole in my head IS an insult at me personally, and is basically winking at moderation who are enabling an acceptable method. I suspect if I said the same, enforcement would somehow be differently applied.

You and others are missing the point that of course the TOS writers couldn't predict specific events, but that doesn't matter. The Prime Universe is ours and ours is what the writers were trying to represent. Their so-called failed predictions were about the dangers; an abstraction of the problems we face. An "alternative" Universe is by definition not ours and not something that engenders the same amount of care or hope. Are you sad that Mirror Universe Captain Archer is dead? Does it bother a lot of fans that Captain Kirk Prime is dead? Does it matter to most of us that one of "Parallels" Riker, from the Borg-infested alternate reality, and the remainder of the crew in his ship are all dead? The alternate universes have no relevance to us in the way the Prime does.

 

[BillJ]

The alternate universes have no relevance to us in the way the Prime does.

Which isn't exactly true as they've been great starting points for some of the best novels. Like David Mack's Mirror Universe: The Sorrows of Empire.

 

[Dukhat]

You and others are missing the point that of course the TOS writers couldn't predict specific events, but that doesn't matter. The Prime Universe is ours and ours is what the writers were trying to represent. Their so-called failed predictions were about the dangers; an abstraction of the problems we face. An "alternative" Universe is by definition not ours and not something that engenders the same amount of care or hope. Are you sad that Mirror Universe Captain Archer is dead? Does it bother a lot of fans that Captain Kirk Prime is dead? Does it matter to most of us that one of "Parallels" Riker, from the Borg-infested alternate reality, and the remainder of the crew in his ship are all dead? The alternate universes have no relevance to *us* in the way the Prime does. (emphasis added)

No one's missing the point. "Relevance" is in the eye of the beholder. Ask any fan of the TV show Gotham if they give a damn about the '60's Batman TV show or any social commentary it might have made.

All you're doing is trying to justify your dislike of the Abrams films by making some esoteric judgement that it's not something people should care about because it's not taking place in TOS (never mind whether TOS is actually "our" universe or not). It's all fiction, whether it's in the Prime Universe or the Abrams Universe or the Next Universe to Come. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and you can justify your hatred any way you want to make yourself sleep better at night. But don't be speaking for "us" when you're really speaking just for yourself.

 

[Ovation]

Saying I have a hole in my head IS an insult at me personally, and is basically winking at moderation who are enabling an acceptable method. I suspect if I said the same, enforcement would somehow be differently applied.

You and others are missing the point that of course the TOS writers couldn't predict specific events, but that doesn't matter. The Prime Universe is ours and ours is what the writers were trying to represent. Their so-called failed predictions were about the dangers; an abstraction of the problems we face. An "alternative" Universe is by definition not ours and not something that engenders the same amount of care or hope. Are you sad that Mirror Universe Captain Archer is dead? Does it bother a lot of fans that Captain Kirk Prime is dead? Does it matter to most of us that one of "Parallels" Riker, from the Borg-infested alternate reality, and the remainder of the crew in his ship are all dead? The alternate universes have no relevance to us in the way the Prime does.

No. Just, no.

The "prime" universe is a fictional construct, just like the Abramsverse. That you care more for one than the other is your right, but your preference is not synonymous with reality. It's simply a preference. Neither "universe" has a greater or lesser degree of probability as a potential future for the present than the other (frankly they're equally, if slightly differently, highly improbable).

 

[M'Sharak]

Saying I have a hole in my head IS an insult at me personally, and is basically winking at moderation who are enabling an acceptable method. I suspect if I said the same, enforcement would somehow be differently applied.

I can't stop you from suspecting what you will, but he did not insult you personally. If you want to discuss it further, take it to PM, but in this thread that side discussion is finished. Return to topic.

...

All you're doing is trying to justify your dislike of the Abrams films by making some esoteric judgement that it's not something people should care about because it's not taking place in TOS (never mind whether TOS is actually "our" universe or not). It's all fiction, whether it's in the Prime Universe or the Abrams Universe or the Next Universe to Come. Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and you can justify your hatred any way you want to make yourself sleep better at night. But don't be speaking for "us" when you're really speaking just for yourself.

Okay, enough. This thread is not going to be about JWPlatt.

 

[F. King Daniel]

If it is in an "alternate" Universe or timeline, that means one that is not our own, also implying that Prime was our own. I maintain that the creators, writers, and all involved with Trek and, apparently, only most fans, believe it was an optimistic vision of hope for OUR future. The "Abramsverse" takes that away.

As an alternate splitting off from prime with Nero's arrival in 2233, it's as much a possible future from our 2014 point-of-view as TOS and the rest are.

(which is to say, not at all, as per the Eugenics Wars in the 90's and other huge differences, but that's beside my point)

 

[fireproof78]

The alternate universes have no relevance to us in the way the Prime does.

Which isn't exactly true as they've been great starting points for some of the best novels. Like David Mack's Mirror Universe: The Sorrows of Empire.

Sometimes the best aspects of science fiction is the ability to craft an entire universe and use that as a foil to comment on current events, and societies without specifically calling out any particular person.

 

[Timewalker]

...and I imagine the well will have dried up after the next movie anyway.

What brings you to that conclusion?

I just don't think there's much story material left in the Abramsverse. The movies are basically reinterpretations of Prime Universe material, and that won't last indefinitely. Hell, even the comics, after only doing three stories which weren't in some way re-interpreted TOS episodes have resorted to doing a six-part story where Q sends the Enterprise to the 24th century to fight the Dominion. I'm not even joking, that's what's actually happening in the comics right now! The Abramsverse is running out of steam, one more movie is all I think we can expect from it.

Seriously, they're not doing anything original?

Thank goodness the fan films are willing to do original stories.

I'd love to see this cast continue to Star Trek VI and onwards, but how slow they're being with making them, I just don't see it happening (unless they film four and five back to back). I could see them maybe doing a Captain Sulu movie or TV show if the majority of the actors don't want to come back, but I'd love to see this crew make more movies than Shatner and co., as long as the movies remain fun.

I wouldn't mind seeing a time travel plot (or one-off) focusing on the JJ-verse 24th century and seeing what effects Nero's tampering had on Captain Picard and the crew of the Enterprise-D.

I'd have loved any kind of Captain Sulu movie or TV show if George Takei was going to play Sulu. I have no objections to the actor who played nuSulu, but I'd much rather Takei had had the opportunity.

To do the time travel to the Abrams version of the 24th-century, you'd have to recast the 24th-century characters as well, since I can't imagine any of the TNG actors coming back (well, maybe Michael Dorn; he seems willing to come back for any kind of Trek).

 

[Dukhat]

Hell, even the comics, after only doing three stories which weren't in some way re-interpreted TOS episodes have resorted to doing a six-part story where Q sends the Enterprise to the 24th century to fight the Dominion. I'm not even joking, that's what's actually happening in the comics right now! The Abramsverse is running out of steam, one more movie is all I think we can expect from it.

Comics are just comics. They're cheap movie tie-in material catered to a very small audience. You can't possibly predict that the Abramsverse has "run out of steam" based solely on that.

 

[fireproof78]

^^

Agreed. It would be difficult to evaluate the success or failure of Abramsverse based upon a smaller part of the franchise. Especially given the fact that the Abramsverse started as a film, designed to appeal to fans and casual film goers, and did quite well at the box office.

Not sure how you go from one poor comic story to the collapse of an entire part of a franchise

 

[The Wormhole]

Not sure how you go from one poor comic story to the collapse of an entire part of a franchise

Not just "one poor comic." The first year or so of the Ongoing series were just adaptations of TOS episodes set in the Abramsverse. Even the STID related comics Countdown to Darkness and After Darkness draw heavily from TOS episodes. The only exceptions were the issues done to explore character backstories. That is until this past January when IDW did start doing original stories not directly tied into the Prime Universe, even though one does still end up including a cameo by Geordi La Forge. But then after three such stories, they began dipping into the Prime Universe well again. Plus there's the video game which just reimagines the Gorn for the Abramsverse.

Ironically, the only truly original work done for the Abramsverse were the novels Pocket Books was going to publish. Those didn't really draw on the Prime Universe at all, unless you count the one about Spock Prime adjusting to life in the Abramsverse. And of course they ended up being pulled because they clashed with the direction Bad Robot wanted to take the franchise.

Based on all the copying (sorry, "homages") the movies have done, and the general direction of the tie-in material, it seems to me that unless it's milking the Prime Universe in some way, Bad Robot isn't interested in going there. And such limitations on story are guaranteed to burn out sooner rather than later. The Abramsverse has one more movie left to it, it will not go for six and we certainly are not going to be following the adventures of this crew twenty-five years later.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Again though, the comic book tie-ins were deliberately kept "safe" and familiar not to tread on the toes of future movies (and then ID contradicted the comics anyway)

As for the novels, they were apparently pulled for licencing reasons, not creative ones.

 

[The Wormhole]

There's never been an official explanation why the novels were pulled, and I find it highly suspect that something which actually tried telling original stories not connected to the Prime Universe and could not (according to the authors) be transplanted to the Prime Universe were pulled while everything else in the Abramsverse, including the movies themselves mine the Prime Universe, copying stories or even entire scenes, in effect, transplanting the Prime Universe into this new timeline.

One of the biggest criticisms leveled towards the comics and STID was what is the point of doing a new timeline if you're just copying everything done in the other one. On a similar vein, I ask, why isn't anything original done in the Abramsverse, and why are the only things we know of which were truly original pulled at the last minute?

 

[fireproof78]

Not sure how you go from one poor comic story to the collapse of an entire part of a franchise

Not just "one poor comic." The first year or so of the Ongoing series were just adaptations of TOS episodes set in the Abramsverse. Even the STID related comics Countdown to Darkness and After Darkness draw heavily from TOS episodes. The only exceptions were the issues done to explore character backstories. That is until this past January when IDW did start doing original stories not directly tied into the Prime Universe, even though one does still end up including a cameo by Geordi La Forge. But then after three such stories, they began dipping into the Prime Universe well again. Plus there's the video game which just reimagines the Gorn for the Abramsverse.

Ironically, the only truly original work done for the Abramsverse were the novels Pocket Books was going to publish. Those didn't really draw on the Prime Universe at all, unless you count the one about Spock Prime adjusting to life in the Abramsverse. And of course they ended up being pulled because they clashed with the direction Bad Robot wanted to take the franchise.

Based on all the copying (sorry, "homages") the movies have done, and the general direction of the tie-in material, it seems to me that unless it's milking the Prime Universe in some way, Bad Robot isn't interested in going there. And such limitations on story are guaranteed to burn out sooner rather than later. The Abramsverse has one more movie left to it, it will not go for six and we certainly are not going to be following the adventures of this crew twenty-five years later.

Why? The comics are a smaller market, and not the original emphasis of Bad Robot, beyond movie tie ins. The homages or takes on TOS stories in Abramsverse are for fun, not necessarily to expand the universe.

As King Daniel indicated the issue with Pocket Books is one of licensing, not of material to create in the world. Also, even Abrams was disappointed with the video game, so it should be taken as a learning experience not as a fatal blow.

Personally, I would watch this crew for 25 years as well, so I don't agree that it still has one more film left in it, especially with such a young cast.

 

[The Wormhole]

[Also, even Abrams was disappointed with the video game, so it should be taken as a learning experience not as a fatal blow.

Which I refuse to believe. Abrams has total creative authority over the Abramsverse, and has delayed the releases of comics and the YA novels because they hadn't yet been approved by him. If he felt the video game was disappointing, he could have prevented its release.

 

[drt]

I'm not so sure Trek fans even want that original of a story, if the villains of Into Darkness had been Harrison and Marcus, people would have endless complained that missed an opportunity to stick "Character A" into the movie.

 

[fireproof78]

[Also, even Abrams was disappointed with the video game, so it should be taken as a learning experience not as a fatal blow.

Which I refuse to believe. Abrams has total creative authority over the Abramsverse, and has delayed the releases of comics and the YA novels because they hadn't yet been approved by him. If he felt the video game was disappointing, he could have prevented its release.

Based upon what has he delayed YA novels and comics? Because the comics continue on, and the novels are held not under his distribution rights.

Abrams does not have total creative authority, because distribution is controlled by different companies. The films are one part, and the TV, books and other materials are another part. If I recall correctly, Paramount has the freedom to make and distribute films, but CBS controls the rest of the distribution.

It is not that simple at all.

 

[Smellmet]

I'm not so sure Trek fans even want that original of a story, if the villains of Into Darkness had been Harrison and Marcus, people would have endless complained that missed an opportunity to stick "Character A" into the movie.

This 40 year old fan is guilty of that. Even though I'd love some original stories I can't deny I was massively excited in the build up to STID as to who the villain was, these new movies don't have the luxury of time to tell stories like a TV show can, so I'm more than happy for them to be re-imagined stories of 'trek's greatest hits'. If they were just retelling the stories as they happened in the Prime universe then I'd be pissed off with that, I enjoyed the alternate take on the Khan story, even if I didn't agree with the casting of Cumberbatch, it was still a massive buzz seeing it unfold on the big screen.