Wouldn't Reliant already have all the Genesis data and materials.

[BillJ]

Yeah because that's how the military operates, they just totally trust civilian organizations with top secret projects and don't keep their at least their top people informed. When Paul Tibbets took off in the Enola Gay the Army Air Corps just told him he was going to be doing a little experiment over Hiroshima that day.

Most military/corporate projects operate under a "need to know" basis. Your premise misses why does the Reliant need to know anything more than "find a lifeless planet"? The Genesis people would give the parameters they need for said planet. They would be under no obligation to share with Reliant why they need that type of planet. They would be under obligation to share with Starfleet Command the information because it is Starfleet that is allocating the resources for the project.

Now, if Reliant were to ever serve as the delivery system for the project, then we have a different matter. But its involvement would still be limited to the actual delivery and they still wouldn't have the nuts and bolts information needed by Khan to construct the device. Anymore than Kirk and Spock got the schematics to M-5 before it was installed aboard the Enterprise. Scott likely got limited information on how to hook the M-5 into the computer network.

People have their pet theories picked apart here every day (I know I have), so don't feel special.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

One just wonders how many other things similar to Project Genesis were ongoing at the time, or during TOS or TNG, with the audience or even the heroes none the wiser! Much of what Starfleet does may well be hush-hush, considering they are supposed to protect the Federation against fantastic threats yet not supposed to do much in the way of over-the-counter armed operations.

Timo Saloniemi

Well, a few years later, the great and powerful Excelsior concludes a three-year mission... Cataloging gaseous anomalies. The Excelsior. Yeah.

What's more, the Enterprise is carrying a load of equipment to do just that, and they didn't even have a mission specific to cataloging anything, they just happened to be carrying it along.

As for the Reliant, I'm happy assuming she was on need-to-know due to the base illegality of Genesis. To his credit, Khan managed to put it together without having to retina scan anything, but OTOH it's not like he really NEEDED it - after his attempt to sink the Enterprise, he happily sailed over to Regula-1 and got his hands on all the data and material he needed anyway. He just really wanted to kill Kirk.

Mark

 

[Captrek]

There's another reason for Khan to be hopeful that the Enterprise would have some useful information on Genesis.

He had already been to Regula One and found that all the technical data on Genesis had been wiped out. Surely that information is too valuable to destroy. He knew that Regula One had communicated with the Enterprise. Perhaps they transmitted a copy of their data to Enterprise for safekeeping so that they could safely destroy their own copies without destroying all the work that had been done to produce it.

 

[BillJ]

As for the Reliant, I'm happy assuming she was on need-to-know due to the base illegality of Genesis.

Why would a terraforming torpedo be illegal?

 

[Captrek]

As for the Reliant, I'm happy assuming she was on need-to-know due to the base illegality of Genesis.

Why would a terraforming torpedo be illegal?

Because it's a WMD that can wipe out all life on a planet?

 

[Dukhat]

As for the Reliant, I'm happy assuming she was on need-to-know due to the base illegality of Genesis.

Why would a terraforming torpedo be illegal?

Because it's a WMD that can wipe out all life on a planet?

The same could be said if enough nuclear reactors melted down, and yet nuclear reactors are not considered WMD.

Anything can be used as a weapon if someone puts their mind to it. That doesn't necessarily mean that something should be considered a WMD.

 

[BillJ]

As for the Reliant, I'm happy assuming she was on need-to-know due to the base illegality of Genesis.

Why would a terraforming torpedo be illegal?

Because it's a WMD that can wipe out all life on a planet?

By that rationale, a 23rd century starship would also be considered a WMD and would also be illegal.

Is there anything anywhere that says WMD's are illegal in the Federation? We know subspace weapons are illegal from Insurrection, but I don't recall any ban on the type of technology that the Genesis device is based on.

 

[Captrek]

We know subspace weapons are illegal from Insurrection, but I don't recall any ban on the type of technology that the Genesis device is based on.

Protomatter. Granted, we aren't told explicitly that its use is regulated, only that it has been "denounced" by "every ethical scientist in the galaxy." In the world of the Federation, that probably means illegal.

 

[BillJ]

We know subspace weapons are illegal from Insurrection, but I don't recall any ban on the type of technology that the Genesis device is based on.

Protomatter. Granted, we aren't told explicitly that its use is regulated, only that it has been "denounced" by "every ethical scientist in the galaxy." In the world of the Federation, that probably means illegal.

You're taking a mighty leap there.

 

[Maurice]

In short, Terrell and Chekov had to know something about Genesis, including its codename, otherwise Khan wouldn't have any reason to attach any significance to it. No matter how much data Reliant did or didn't have, Khan wanted everything he could get his hands on, especially when he left Regula One empty handed.

 

[eyeresist]

This is somewhat related in that it's about the Reliant, but did it seem to any of you that once Khan and his flunkies took over the ship, the bridge was shot differently? At that point, it seemed the camera angles were less varied than in the beginning. I can't really explain it any better than that, it was just an impression...

I think you are right. When the Reliant had its star fleet crew we got a good idea of the bridge's geography, but once Kahn took over we were limited to front-on shots of the captain's chair with occasional cuts to Joachim at his post (science officer station?). It was probably a time-and-budget thing.

 

[BillJ]

This is somewhat related in that it's about the Reliant, but did it seem to any of you that once Khan and his flunkies took over the ship, the bridge was shot differently? At that point, it seemed the camera angles were less varied than in the beginning. I can't really explain it any better than that, it was just an impression...

I think you are right. When the Reliant had its star fleet crew we got a good idea of the bridge's geography, but once Kahn took over we were limited to front-on shots of the captain's chair with occasional cuts to Joachim at his post (science officer station?). It was probably a time-and-budget thing.

Joachim was at tactical during the first attack then was at the helm for the rest of the film, I believe.

 

[Maurice]

Let's see what the script says. Bolded text is material deleted from the final cut of the film:

45 INT. RELIANT BRIDGE 45

Khan occupies the Captain's chair. We PULL BACK: the crew of the RELIANT has been replaced by Khan's followers in their odd-looking clothes.

At the helm is Joachim, Khan's lieutenant. He is in the largest and brightest of Khan's group. Terrell sits in the First Officer's chair, Chekov at the Comm Console. Their behavior is normal, save for subtle hesitation, symptoms of their mind-controlled state.

JOACHIM
Steady on course. All systems normal.

KHAN
It's not much different from
Enterprise.
(beat)
When I was a guest aboard her some
years ago, Captain Kirk kindly allowed
me to memorize her technical manuals.
And now, Mr. Chekov, let us review:
You say you have no details of
Project 'Genesis' ?

CHEKOV
Beyond what I told you, sir, it is
classified information.

KHAN
Umm. And would Admiral Kirk have
access to such information?

CHEKOV
I would think so, sir. He's on the
Fleet General Staff.

KHAN
Then to whom do you report directly
regarding Genesis?

CHEKOV
To Doctor Marcus, the civilian
director of the experiments on Space
Laboratory Regula I.

KHAN
(thinks)
I see. Helmsman?

HELMSMAN
Aye, sir.​

JOACHIM
May I speak? We're all with you,
sir, but consider: we are free,
we have a ship and the means to
go where we will. We have
escaped permanent exile on Ceti
Alpha V. You have proved your
superior intellect and defeated
the plans of Admiral Kirk.
You do not need to defeat him
again.

KHAN
He tasks me -- and I'll have him. I'll
chase him round the moons of Nibia
and round the Antares maelstrom and
round perdition's flames before I give
him up.
(as no one speaks)
Prepare to alter course -- for Space
Station Regula I.​

 

[Timo]

Eg why the Ceti eels make Terrell and Chekov just obey Khan's commands, why not everyones?, why Terrell and Chekov don't get their brains eaten and Khan's people did, why couldn't they just put the Genesis device on a transporter and disassemble it in space like they did in 'Wolf in the Fold', why Khan's crew looked like they were in their mid 20s, etc.

Good ones, but I don't think they really need that much explaining. Ceti eels take time to create lasting damage or lethal effects - Marla's death was supposed to have been a prolonged and painful affair. And it's not as if Chekov and Terrell would have been in a situation where somebody else besides Khan would have been telling them what to do and expecting them to refuse. Even Carol Marcus didn't tell Chekov to stop taking Genesis, thus countermanding Khan's original orders to the poor sap: she just fumed at her team about it.

As for beaming out Genesis, it's easy to accept that the delicate machine would simply detonate at the attempt. Also, David seems adamant that Kirk cannot "beam over to stop it" - why is that? Perhaps because transporters aren't compatible with an ongoing Genesis warm-up...

But yeah, there are all sorts of funny things going on in ST2, some seeming continuity hiccups, others just odd scifi choices. IMHO, that's an upside of the movie rather than a downside. Then again, I like the somewhat convoluted plot of ST:Insurrection, too, even if that one (too) is concluded with a big simple fight.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[alpha_leonis]

My thoughts, after skimming the thread (so my apologies if this has been addressed by somebody else earlier.)

Consider that Genesis is high-enough security, that not even Spock knew about it. Spock being a Starfleet Captain, science expert, and personal friend of the elder Dr. Marcus. Kirk had to physically show Spock the information by way of a retina-scan security clearance.

I'd bet that any data Reliant had about it was just basic -- only complete enough to accomplish their specific mission of finding a suitable planet, and no more. Certainly not any part of the technical details, all of which are stored back on (actually were deleted from) the orbiting lab at Regula.

For highly classified data such as this, I would *hope* that Reliant's computers would have been programmed with the best security measures available. Once Beech (the temporary CO while Terrell and Chekov were away) knew they were being boarded by a hostile party, the very first thing I would have done in his place would be to scuttle anything classified out of the computer system. That would be standard procedure anyway, even without Genesis. Or so I would think.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Also, David seems adamant that Kirk cannot "beam over to stop it" - why is that? Perhaps because transporters aren't compatible with an ongoing Genesis warm-up...

I think what David meant is that once the countdown has been started, it can't be aborted, not that transporters wouldn't work in close proximity to the device.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

Possibly - but the other interpretation would patch up yet another plot hole.

In ST2 and ST3 both, the heroes and villains get to study Genesis through an introductory video. This is probably something anybody can access from a centralized data network or from archives carried aboard every starship, with proper clearances; comparable material would no doubt exist on omega particles and the like. But the video tells next to nothing about the relevant technical specs of Genesis, and that material Khan would be hard pressed to find.

The Enterprise would have no good justification for carrying the material. The Reliant might have something aboard, but as argued here, this is not required. The lab would be the one place with that material available, and the Marcuses made sure Khan couldn't get it from there. Or actually they would have made sure Starfleet couldn't get it, because when they went into hiding, they supposedly knew nothing about Khan yet. Remember, David was convinced it was Kirk who killed everybody up there...

This doesn't mean Khan would have been off base to ask Kirk for Genesis, though. Kirk doesn't have it, but Khan has good reason to think Kirk might have it. He's fixated on Kirk to start with, and when it really is Kirk who first responds to Carol's SOS, his belief that Kirk is intimately involved in Genesis would appear to be verified.

Yet does Khan really need the material? He knows Kirk doesn't have the actual device - it must have been hidden from Khan by the research team, rather than by the Enterprise. Khan can use the one device. He cannot use the underlying technology, though; he has neither the time nor the expertise to build further Genesis torpedoes, no matter how many secret files he manages to hoard.

But even this is no reason not to ask Kirk for Genesis. The purpose of the entire exercise is to make Kirk suffer, and getting him to cower in front of Khan is well worth the effort of asking him for something he assuredly does not have. Khan probably isn't expecting Kirk to transmit anything relevant, not really. He just wants to see Kirk squirm. And if Kirk does give something, this can be used for further blackmail: with Genesis being so darn secret, Khan can plausibly threaten his victims with whatever number of Genesis devices he wants to claim he possesses, using the secret files to bolster his empty claims...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Oh, and one wonders... Who has Genesis at the conclusion of the film? In the next one, Kruge only gets appetizers (which is why he has that "Give - Me - Genesis!" fit in the end). But Kirk never had an opportunity to go back to the Regula lab or the cave after finishing off Khan; the Genesis wave had already destroyed all that.

Did the Marcuses manage to take some material with them? That is, did Kirk beam this up when he returned from the cave to his ship when the two hours were up? Khan only took the device; there were other items left lying about after the "KHAAAAAANNNN!" bit. And of course everything relevant might have been in David's pocket on a TOS style storage disk.

If the material was left inside the Regula asteroid and was destroyed there, does Starfleet have up-to-date backups stored elsewhere? The Marcuses would never get funding if they didn't file satisfactory progress reports, even if those were all stamped TRI-ISO-SECRET and FOR YOUR RETINAS ONLY. But they supposedly made some further progress just before the events of the movie, i.e. completing the programming of the device; did these updates ever reach Starfleet?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captrek]

Also, David seems adamant that Kirk cannot "beam over to stop it" - why is that? Perhaps because transporters aren't compatible with an ongoing Genesis warm-up...

I think what David meant is that once the countdown has been started, it can't be aborted, not that transporters wouldn't work in close proximity to the device.

--Sran

But if the torpedo itself can be transported, why not set the transporter on wide beam dispersal (à la Wolf in the Fold) to prevent it from rematerializing and detonating?

 

[BillJ]

Also, David seems adamant that Kirk cannot "beam over to stop it" - why is that? Perhaps because transporters aren't compatible with an ongoing Genesis warm-up...

I think what David meant is that once the countdown has been started, it can't be aborted, not that transporters wouldn't work in close proximity to the device.

--Sran

But if the torpedo itself can be transported, why not set the transporter on wide beam dispersal (à la Wolf in the Fold) to prevent it from rematerializing and detonating?

Because that would be less dramatically satisfying.