This is the first I've ever heard of this.
New or Old Klingons?
- Thread starter johnnybear
- Start date
Yeah. I think that it sounds like fanzine fanwank, or based on it.
No mention of it in TMoST (pp. 257-258), which on the contrary describes the physical characteristics of Klingon appearance: "slightly oriental looking, dark complexioned, with bushy eyebrows that arch up at both ends."
Agree. I've not heard this before.
Not that I have half as much knowledge that some of the folks here have, but this just doesn't 'sound' right given what little knowledge I have.
While it was probably inevitable that Klingons in TNG would be the same variety as Kruge and his crew, I really wish the wardrobe department would have at least made different uniforms for them instead of recycling the movie ones. Of course that was mainly because Klingons weren't originally going to be in TNG (even Worf was a last-minute addition), so it doesn't surprise me that they didn't bother outfitting them with newer duds.
The TMP-TNG-era Klingons are my favorite. But that is my favorite era when it comes to Klingons, and I think DS9 is the high water mark for Klingons, personally.
However, I do like the more devious side TOS presneted with John Colicos's Kor. Ansara's Kang further added depth to Klingons, and arguably is the basis for them having a sense of honor, and while being a more savage species, still complex, and even more human like than humans might want to admit. I think those two portrayals are consistent with what we later got with TMP and TSFS. TNG merely continued the pattern.
Other than having different uniforms and being bald, I don't see much fundamentally different between TNG era and STID Klingons. When I first saw the lead Klingon, my impression was that they mostly kept the TMP-TNG Klingon intact (both visually and personality wise), and they just basically got a visual facelift to make them reminiscent of Calibos from the original Clash of the Titans. The only real differences to me was the fact that they were bald (which we also saw in Plummer's Chang), wore helmets, and spoke only in Klingon to sound more menacing. They didn't get enough screen time to say "WOW they TOTALLY changed how Klingons are as a race." For all we know, the small group we saw are just a variation on the TMP-TNG Klingon, just as we see in TUC.
However, I do like the more devious side TOS presneted with John Colicos's Kor. Ansara's Kang further added depth to Klingons, and arguably is the basis for them having a sense of honor, and while being a more savage species, still complex, and even more human like than humans might want to admit. I think those two portrayals are consistent with what we later got with TMP and TSFS. TNG merely continued the pattern.
Other than having different uniforms and being bald, I don't see much fundamentally different between TNG era and STID Klingons. When I first saw the lead Klingon, my impression was that they mostly kept the TMP-TNG Klingon intact (both visually and personality wise), and they just basically got a visual facelift to make them reminiscent of Calibos from the original Clash of the Titans. The only real differences to me was the fact that they were bald (which we also saw in Plummer's Chang), wore helmets, and spoke only in Klingon to sound more menacing. They didn't get enough screen time to say "WOW they TOTALLY changed how Klingons are as a race." For all we know, the small group we saw are just a variation on the TMP-TNG Klingon, just as we see in TUC.
Just as a matter of interest could anyone here really see David Warner as the supreme chancellor of The Klingon Empire in the TOS series?
JB
JB
The JJ Klingons looked familiar. Perhaps the JJ Klingons evolved from the alien in Enemy Mine
or perhaps from that monster in Jeepers Creepers
.
The TNG Klingons were like cavemen with their tiresome chants of honor and combat. There was a cartoonish nature to them.
The old Klingons, on the other hand, came across as ruthless and cunning. There were no silly theatrics about them. They may not have had all of that fancy makeup job, but they were adversaries that had to be taken seriously.
Also, those TOS Klingons would be turning over in their graves if they knew how pathetic their descendants became. A once proud warrior race turning to an alien foreigner (Picard, the arbiter) to help them pick their new leader. Plus the TNG Klingons have practically sub contracted the defense of their empire to Picard and the Feds ("Redemption" eps). Really pathetic.
I'm not too much of a fan of what came later "WARRIORS!!!! HONOAHHHH!!! RARRGH ARAGHHH! EVERYTHING WE EAT IS MADE WITH BLOOD AND WE HAVE ANGER AND WE WANNA FIIIIIGHT!"It's not really intimidating, so much as it's hysterical. It makes me wonder how they got into space in the first place!
The TNG Klingons were like cavemen with their tiresome chants of honor and combat. There was a cartoonish nature to them.
The old Klingons, on the other hand, came across as ruthless and cunning. There were no silly theatrics about them. They may not have had all of that fancy makeup job, but they were adversaries that had to be taken seriously.
Also, those TOS Klingons would be turning over in their graves if they knew how pathetic their descendants became. A once proud warrior race turning to an alien foreigner (Picard, the arbiter) to help them pick their new leader. Plus the TNG Klingons have practically sub contracted the defense of their empire to Picard and the Feds ("Redemption" eps). Really pathetic.
Why do the TNG and later klingons also wear outfits similar to Spanish conquistadors yet the TOS Klingons wear jazzy pants with a teashirt covered by a gold top yet the Klingons seen at various times in ENT wear the conquistador uniforms? Continuity glitch on the production side again I'd say!
JB
JB
What they have available in wardrobe.
Well, the Klingons from the Enterprise era did nothave the same outfits as the TMP-TNG-era Klingons. They wore leather and fur clothing, which reminded me of what a viking might wear.
The TOS Klingon uniforms obviously were just cloth, and obviously what the production budget allowed for.
By TMP, the Klingons were revamped, and I remember reading that their appearance in TMP is what Roddenberry had intended, had the budget been there. Also, the forehead change was added to make them look more alien. But it is interesting to note even though the TMP uniforms were radically different, they did still keep the black and silver color of TOS.
Regardless, I prefer any of those uniforms to the Abramsverse Trenchcoat Mafia & spartan helmet look. That is just plain stupid.
Why is it stupid? You put it out there, so I think you should explain. They were obviously in a climate that required some type of protection from the elements, as we also see Khan wearing a black trench coat and a hood.
(Well, the Klingons from the Enterprise era did nothave the same outfits as the TMP-TNG-era Klingons. They wore leather and fur clothing, which reminded me of what a viking might wear.)
No, those were renegade Klingons in the cloth and fur, if you watch the very first ENT, Broken Bow, you can see the conquistador Klingons in the mine sequence in the distance! I've always thought that the newer Trek shows have tried to ignore TOS because it wasn't made by them, ie:Berman, Braga and Moore!
JB
No, those were renegade Klingons in the cloth and fur, if you watch the very first ENT, Broken Bow, you can see the conquistador Klingons in the mine sequence in the distance! I've always thought that the newer Trek shows have tried to ignore TOS because it wasn't made by them, ie:Berman, Braga and Moore!
JB
It's often repeated that the TMP Klingons were supposed to be what the Klingons were always supposed to be like, but I question the veracity of that claim. It sounds like something GR made up just to handwave away the difference in appearance.
I certainly would like to have seen some conceptual drawings for the TOS Klingons when they appeared initially in "Errand Of Mercy" as opposed to referencing that John Colicos claimed the look of the Klingons was basically invented on the spot when he went in for make-up.
The Klingons became a lot more prominant in the films and later series than they were in TOS.
I certainly would like to have seen some conceptual drawings for the TOS Klingons when they appeared initially in "Errand Of Mercy" as opposed to referencing that John Colicos claimed the look of the Klingons was basically invented on the spot when he went in for make-up.
The Klingons became a lot more prominant in the films and later series than they were in TOS.
I never thought that Roddenberry meant that they thought of the TMP look back in the 1960s. I took his purported remark to mean that they would have done more than paint and hair if they could have afforded it (probably true), so "Let's take this cool product of the 1970s and retroactively imagine that the TOS Klingons looked this way."
I thought they looked good in TOS as they were!
JB
JB
TMP, the source of the conquistador look, wasn't created by Berman, Braga and Moore.
No that's true! I don't think they looked exactly like the later Klingons though either as they all had the same ridge rather than the veined turtle! I didn't mean to say that Berman, Braga and Moore had created the conquistador Klingons, Geoff, what I meant was that these three guys tended to ignore TOS because it wasn't worked on by any of them!
JB
JB
Sound like John Ford's novel The Final Reflection and pieces of the FASA role playing game.
Unless the Klingons were genociding every species they ever conquered, it would make sense that the Empire was a multi-species affair.
When the ancient Romans would conquer a new people, those people became Roman citizens too. How much power the conquered people would have in the Klingon Empire is debatable, certainly the biological Klingons would hold the top positions of power. However there might be a political structure of many levels.
