Fair enough.
SKRS #1: Second Nature by David Mack Review Thread (Spoilers!)
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Giving me chills. "Let them die" too. So good.
^ One of the things I love about STVI is the growth of Kirk.
Kirk didn't "grow" in ST VI, he was just forced grossly out of character. The "let them die" line was so totally wrong for Kirk that Shatner rebelled against delivering it at all. It made no sense, given how chummy he was with the Klingons at the end of ST V.
^ I disagree, but that is ok. I think V is the out-of-character movie for Kirk.
As much as I will give V a pass, I feel like VI continues on the story from II, III & VI and is much more of a natural progression of the characters. We never really got to see the way Kirk feels about things in the aftermath of III and unfortunately V just glosses over it. Kirk talks about needing his pain in V and yet part of that pain has to be the loss of his son and the life he could have had with him alive, yet nothing to show how he can be so chummy with the Klingons. I just didn't buy it.
To me VI is what needed to be seen to show how Kirk overcomes this pain he suffered. As all fans this is MHO.
As much as I will give V a pass, I feel like VI continues on the story from II, III & VI and is much more of a natural progression of the characters. We never really got to see the way Kirk feels about things in the aftermath of III and unfortunately V just glosses over it. Kirk talks about needing his pain in V and yet part of that pain has to be the loss of his son and the life he could have had with him alive, yet nothing to show how he can be so chummy with the Klingons. I just didn't buy it.
To me VI is what needed to be seen to show how Kirk overcomes this pain he suffered. As all fans this is MHO.
It's not just that movie, it's everything that had ever previously been established about the character. He was not someone who'd ever suggest racial genocide, or who'd be so stupid and racist as to blame an entire species for the actions of a few of its members. That's not who Kirk is, even for a moment. He might resent the Klingon military or the Klingon government for what Kruge did, but he would not be such a total idiot as to want to see the entire species, including the children and the farmers and the engineers and the opera singers, exterminated for what a Klingon military officer did. If Shatner himself, the man who'd been playing the character for a quarter-century, insisted it was out of character, then the filmmakers should've listened to him.
Sure, fine, but that pain would never, under any circumstances, make him advocate racial genocide. That was just taking it too far. It was a gross mishandling of his character.
^ Again you have your opinion and I have mine. We don't agree and that is okay. I feel like Meyer did a great job in handling the characters and it made sense to me. Best thing about Trek is we all see different things. Kirk has a long history with the Klingons and to me this was not shocking or out of character, especially when I think of how other characters in Trek had issues with other species; Miles with Cardassians comes to mind. I felt it was appropriate to show Kirk this way and allow him to grow in front of our eyes especially since his growth was a good way to get the audience to follow his lead.
And Kirk suggesting genocide, he immediately regrets that, showing he is speaking not out of his better nature, but his pain, perfectly showing Kirk is human, not perfect and still has things to overcome and learn.
In the end we disagree but great thing about Trek is IDIC.
And Kirk suggesting genocide, he immediately regrets that, showing he is speaking not out of his better nature, but his pain, perfectly showing Kirk is human, not perfect and still has things to overcome and learn.
In the end we disagree but great thing about Trek is IDIC.
Do you have any kids?
I'd agree with Enterpriserules's assessment. I think the "Let them die!" moment was Kirk losing his composure for a moment as his unresolved grief and anger reared up. He clearly regrets what he's said a moment after the words leave his mouth. I can believe that even a noble character like Kirk can have a moment of weakness and bitterness over such a personal hurt. The fact that he does not act on that dark impulse during the rest of the movie suggests it was only an isolated verbal slip, spurred by emotions run amok.
Being angry at the specific person who killed his son is understandable. Being angry at the entire Klingon military and government, the institutions that fostered such aggression and allowed it to happen, is understandable. But wanting, even for a moment, to see an entire species exterminated for it is quite simply racist, and I don't think that's defensible.
And yes, it was shown that he regretted it, but that was how Shatner softened the line as scripted. It was his attempt to salvage something that was a bad idea, and it helped, but I still think the line was out of character. Maybe if the story had taken place right after TSFS, it would make sense, but it was set the better part of a decade later. It was awkward and forced.
And yes, it was shown that he regretted it, but that was how Shatner softened the line as scripted. It was his attempt to salvage something that was a bad idea, and it helped, but I still think the line was out of character. Maybe if the story had taken place right after TSFS, it would make sense, but it was set the better part of a decade later. It was awkward and forced.
I never said it was defensible. It's illogical and very human as a parent to have feelings that you can't completely control when it comes to your children. And Kirk immediately regrets his words, you can see that. He doesn't really believe them, he just lashed out and was wrong.
I do wish that it had been closer to III, because it would have been more congruous, but I think Meyer picked up on threads that should have been addressed and made them work, IMHO and only in my opinion.
The moment of regret is what saves it. Otherwise I'd agree with Christopher.
He knows he's gotten irrational and immediately regrets it.
It's been a while since I've read Star Trek Movie Memories so I don't know if that came from Shatner, Meyer, or was in the script.
I appreciate the support. Chris you know I respect you and your opinion and of course I respect Shatner, I just enjoyed watching the character grapple with the gravity of his loss and anger all while finally finding a way to let go.
Star Trek is guilty sometimes of not allowing the character to grow onscreen. I liked that Meyer let us see Kirk, a noble man, wrestle with something so tragic in the most human of ways. In the end, Kirk's better nature does win and like Kira with the Cardassians, he lets go of his hatred and becomes an advocate for change.
Yes, sure, grapple with loss and anger, fine. But it is not necessary to go full-on racist in order to do that. That's the part I object to.
I get it. I think it's an irrational reaction and not sure racist is the best term. Kirk just allows fear, anger and rage to get the best of him. When it comes to children there are a lot of irrational and unexplained things you can feel when something happens to them (My sister and brother-in-law have both talked to me about this with their children). Kirk lashes out, says something he regrets and throughout the movie proves just exactly who he is, his actions define him, not a few misplaced words said in anger.
In the end Kirk sees past his anger and forgives because of who he sees Gorkon to be and Azetbur Good people who do not need to be judged by the actions of others.
In the end Kirk sees past his anger and forgives because of who he sees Gorkon to be and Azetbur Good people who do not need to be judged by the actions of others.
I think there is such depth to this movie. Change like this is scary, whether it's a personal paradigm shift in thinking or a massive political change, it does not come easy. Kirk is facing both. I love that, in the end, the best part of Kirk wins out.
I suppose I can see what you're saying. The problem is just that it was so out of the blue. Look at the tie-in fiction written before TUC, notably the movie-era comics from DC, and there are plenty of stories of Kirk getting along with Klingons, trying to get past the conflict and persuade them that we could all be friends, because that's the kind of protagonist he was usually portrayed as in the series and previous films. The first volume of the DC comic, telling stories set between TWOK and TFF, even has a Klingon defector become a member of Kirk's crew. Yes, of course those stories weren't canonical, but they reflected how the character of Kirk was perceived by fans and authors at the time. So for TUC to reveal out of the blue that Kirk had hated the whole Klingon species for years was jarringly inconsistent. J.M. Dillard, in her novelization of TUC, had to add material establishing that a recent Klingon raid had almost killed Carol Marcus, because without that it made no sense that Kirk would suddenly hate Klingons so much. Later on, when Dayton Ward wrote In the Name of Honor, he offered another possible explanation for where this unprecedented personal hatred of the Klingon race had come from. It needed to be explained because it's just so jarringly out of character. Maybe people today who have grown up accepting TUC as a basic part of the saga don't see it that way, but it was really startling and strange to a lot of people when TUC first came out.
I completely get that Chris! You are right, it does seem like it is out of the blue. But when I couple II, II and IV together and I see what Kirk went though, it made sense that it would come up. In V Kirk does make a big deal about needing his pain and so with that thread, it makes sense to me.
I am one of the people who has always had TUC as long as I've been a fan and was really into ST. So seeing the whole story, it is not as jarring. Coming from Meyer, though it makes sense. He was never all about Gene's perfect people in Trek, so having Kirk struggle like this and be a link for the real world audience and the political climate at the time is genius if you ask me. Meyer is picking up on where he left the characters and some of the bits we see that support his Kirk from V. It's a little messier than it should be because of V, but works on the whole.
It would have been great if the novels of the time had picked up on some of this, but that really was not the style then. I think the current novels and writers (like yourself) are far more willing to question the characters and their motivations as well as their faults. Kirk had some glaring faults and Meyer was one of the few people willing to point them out, yet at the same time make him a hero redeemed by the end. Nice to know in the future that no on is perfect
I am one of the people who has always had TUC as long as I've been a fan and was really into ST. So seeing the whole story, it is not as jarring. Coming from Meyer, though it makes sense. He was never all about Gene's perfect people in Trek, so having Kirk struggle like this and be a link for the real world audience and the political climate at the time is genius if you ask me. Meyer is picking up on where he left the characters and some of the bits we see that support his Kirk from V. It's a little messier than it should be because of V, but works on the whole.
It would have been great if the novels of the time had picked up on some of this, but that really was not the style then. I think the current novels and writers (like yourself) are far more willing to question the characters and their motivations as well as their faults. Kirk had some glaring faults and Meyer was one of the few people willing to point them out, yet at the same time make him a hero redeemed by the end. Nice to know in the future that no on is perfect
Like Enterpriserules I tend to enjoy the portrait of Kirk in VI too - in part because it is what I grew up with, and I think it the most fascinating of the film series. I love the fallible nature of Kirk in the film - I don't agree he is advocating genocide. It's angry bitter exaustion with the Klingons, for whom he simply has no sympathy. And why should he? His interactions with the Klingons (as filmed) are entirely through its xenophobic and aggressive military and foreign services, except the strand, perhaps, seen in V. When Spock says 'They are dying', Spock is talking about a race Kirk has predominantly seen entertain acts of aggression: espionage, piracy and warfare. Let kirk be bitter for once - he's pushing 60, he can be an old man with all its problematic nature for once. Yet Kirk isn't part of the conspiracy, is not even approached by its members - and that's what differentiates him from the other old soldiers, Chang and Cartwright included. Instead Kirk is used as a scapegoat, which suggests how despite his hatred of the Klingons for the death of his boy, he is still seen by the brass as 'too noble' or too much the hero, and likely to do the right thing irrespective of personal feeling.
But I see what Christopher is saying too, for someone who followed a very different depiction of Kirk in tie-in media prior to 1991. For me it doesn't feel out of the blue, following on from II-IV (with V being a film I haven't watched in a over a decade).
But I see what Christopher is saying too, for someone who followed a very different depiction of Kirk in tie-in media prior to 1991. For me it doesn't feel out of the blue, following on from II-IV (with V being a film I haven't watched in a over a decade).
I always thought it was clever for TUC to throw the audience a curveball and force them to question Kirk's decision-making. I think the general problem with Trek on the big screen is that the format forces raised stakes and an accelerated pace that are out of touch with what Trek is best at (more cerebral, quieter moral pieces), and this was an interesting substitute, or shortcut, to achieve some of the same class anyway. I can see how it was a jarring change-up to the character, but I think it was worth it and made for one of the franchise's best feature outings. Also one of Shatner's best performances in the role.
From Star Trek Movie Memories - pb version - page 366:
There isn't anything in The View From the Bridge (Meyer's memoir) about it directly other than GR not liking the Klingon's appearing sympathetic and the bigotry amongst Enterprise crew members ("they all look alike").
I find the Shatner quote odd because it does seem like Kirk's own surprised reaction is in the film. I don't know if that differs between publicly released cuts, though.
There isn't anything in The View From the Bridge (Meyer's memoir) about it directly other than GR not liking the Klingon's appearing sympathetic and the bigotry amongst Enterprise crew members ("they all look alike").
I find the Shatner quote odd because it does seem like Kirk's own surprised reaction is in the film. I don't know if that differs between publicly released cuts, though.