Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Dal Rassak, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ziyal did not see it as choosing Garak over Dukat, she saw it as 'No good reason I can't choose both, even though they hate each other'.

    And then later she went against Dukat because she knew he was planning to hurt people.
     
  2. Scoobysnacks

    Scoobysnacks Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I've just gotten back into rewatching DS9 after a long hiatus. I have to say I liked the Garak/Ziyal relationship. I'd forgotten the multi-actress casting situation. I get why they went with Melanie Smith from an age standpoint. She didn't really seem 35 in that makeup and Garak seemed younger to me than Andrew Robinson in real life so it wasn't a problem from that standpoint.

    In "Call to Arms" she kisses and hugs him on the way off the station, and Garak seems startled not by the idea that someone he doesn't have feelings for is kissing him, but that she feels a genuine love for him and an honest spirit when he's used to so many people having ulterior motives. He's holding her the way you do when you feel something for someone--even if he doesn't think he deserves to receive it, and even if it's not grown into love. He feels something, but with Garak it's always more complicated than that.

    In "Sacrifice of Angels" he's among those reuniting with loved ones on the station, looking for Ziyal. It's not like he's just humoring her, knowing she expects to see him and he has to go through the motions. He's not just going to be relieved to see the other DS9 Cardassian is safe or that his friend's okay. As much as he likes Bashir, I dunno that I'd ever expect to see Garak looking around that way, anxious for a reunion. Ziyal feels about him the way no one else does. He's looking forward to seeing her, knows she'd be looking for him, and genuinely wants to reconnect with that innocent soul that thinks he's a wonderful person. He would've been happy and relieved to reconnect. I think that says a lot. We can't expect him to break down in tears in the infirmary. Kira wasn't doing that. They've both seen too much death and lost too many people.

    If nothing else, he'd eventually have the My Fair Lady realization "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face" and if his neck was on the line at some point in the future she'd try to stand with him rather than let him be scrappy on his own. I'm not sure if Garak thought he deserved to be loved by someone like Ziyal. That's why he couldn't figure out why she loved him. It wasn't some weird attachment on her part. It was that he didn't understand how he warranted anything like that from anyone, especially because his life has been lacking in trust for so long. Kind of sad.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ziyal was a tragic character from the very beginning, but it wasn't over done or blatantly rubbed in your face. In fact quite the opposite, that she had seen the horrors that life had to offer and knew the value of making each moment count and being optimistic despite it all.

    But it's another grand example of how DS9 handled it's subplots and secondary characters too. Ziyal not only had her own character arc, but influenced so many others too. Kira, Dukat, Damar, Garak. Heck, even she and Quark had a few moments. But just having her around was an example of the show willing to take chances and not just hit the reset button, but have real consequences. Be it her being Dukat's daughter, a child of the Occupation to Garak's lover even to finally killing her. An excellent plot and consequences that lasted well beyond her final appearance.

    The saddest moment of all was when Kira and Garak, in what should've been the hour of their greatest triumph, were in the Infirmary with her body. Even though, there's no love lost between the two, they both cared for Ziyal. Kira says she loved him and Garak... in probably one of his few honest moments just says he didn't know why. Sad stuff.
     
  4. nureintier

    nureintier Commander Red Shirt

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    The fact of having 3 actresses made it a lot harder for me to empathize with her, it seemed like a totally new person each time. I understand they wanted someone older for the 3rd one, though.

    I just saw her as a morality pet. Dukat changes his mind about killing her, so we at least briefly think he's an ok guy with a conscience.

    On the other hand, I almost got the feeling he did it to try to get into Kira's pants. If he'd been with someone else, I think he'd have killed her (especially since it would be a scandal and his family would leave him). So I kind of feel like, rather than this act showing the audience Dukat's a nice guy, it's a manipulative act to show Kira he's a nice guy. I see her as a plot device, but I like that she exists in the series. It's not that I think Dukat is that horrible, I just think he looks at the world in a very skewed way. And he had a lot to lose by not killing her. The one thing that might have tipped the odds in his favor when it came to Kira would be saving Ziyal, and he seemed to think this might set the stage for the three of them playing house and living happily ever after.

    There's also the fact that Dukat's really into Bajoran women and she's sort of a token of that, as others have mentioned.

    And also the way that she adores him and he's very full of himself. He thinks everyone should adore him, he thinks there should be statues of him on Bajor, so of course he appreciates that at least one person looks up to him. His need for adoration is treated pretty heavy-handedly in episode Covenant.
     
  5. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I liked her. I thought her infatuation with Garak was nice. It was kind of tragic how he kept pushing her away. You'd think on the surface that it's because of her age, but I think after you scratch past that it's because he doesn't feel like he deserves love deep down. Plus, I actually think he cared enough about her to not want to pull her into his fate by too close of an association.
     
  6. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I thought Ziyal's arc started out well but I think they botched it at the end.

    They couldn't send Ziyal to another part of the Federation because there was nobody but Kira who'd accept her.
     
  7. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I really liked Ziyal and was upset when she was killed. I think she was an important part of Dukat's development, especially since she was close to Kira which made for some good scenes since Kira despises Dukat. :D
     
  8. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Captain Captain

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    For me, I think it was a subtle part of Dukat's personality that the writers did which was really good. Basically, Dukat is NOT a sociopath--but he's done ungodly amounts of sociopathic actions. In a weird way, Dukat is the guy from Duet except he's unwilling to admit what he's done.

    He desperately wants to justify the unjustifiable.

    Ziyal is a way of him redeeming himself for supervising the murder of 7 million people.
     
  9. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I really liked Ziyal (especially the third actress who played her), though I do wish they had done more with her over the course of her time onboard.

    I'd liked to have seen a relationship between her and Jake, mostly for the reactions from both Sisko and Dukat--one not keen on it whilst the other would try to take advantage of it. This could also have seen some good moments for the Jake-Nog friendship.

    I would have liked her to survive, though understand why she needed to die.

    I also think it would've been nice to have had a reveal after her death, that Tora Ziyal was actually Kira Ziyal--Nerys' half-sister who Dukat fathered.

    Just some thoughts I've had on Ziyal over the years.
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That would've been so awesome just for the excuse of Dukat to say "You may call me daddy" to Kira. :lol:
     
  11. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    EWWWWIES!!!! :klingon::klingon::klingon:
     
  12. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I like Ziyal but I find it unfortunate they had to go through three actresses. That's it for me.
     
  13. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah.

    Am I the only one who preferred Actress #3? The one who had the relationship with Garak, I believe.

    Seems like most people prefer #1.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Melanie Smith was my favorite of them all too.
     
  15. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Cyia Battem (Ziyal the First) was good in the role, though she did make the character look to be in her teens--when you think of what they had in mind for her she did need to be a little older (the last thing you want is a creepy old man leching over a young girl...you know like they did with Neelix/Kes).

    Tracy Middendorf (Ziyal the Second) was pretty awful in her one appearance. I don't know what it is but she just didn't do anything for the character.

    Melanie Smith (Ziyal the Third) was my favourite actress in the role. She really gave Ziyal a strength and charm that made her very endearing, so that when she was killed off it was a shock to lose her.
     
  16. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed.

    Ziyal #1 and Ziyal #3 looked very different age-wise.
     
  17. Mirror Kira

    Mirror Kira Cadet Newbie

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    I thought Ziyal was rather dull. The writers could have named her Plot Device. Things would have been much more interesting had she taken after dear old dad.
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If she had been "evil" she wouldn't have been much more than Dukat's lackey and Damar pretty much had that role filled.
     
  19. Data girl

    Data girl Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I think she brought Kira and dukat closer . I also liked the scene where dukat tells ziyal that he forgives her and loves her. It shows that he can love someone else. I find it very powerful. However, it only lasted for moment before he went over the edge.
     
  20. NCC-1701-B

    NCC-1701-B Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I prefer Ziyal 3, and I was sad when she died. Because I find her scarily too attractive :I