Ziyal - good addition or better left out?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Dal Rassak, Feb 22, 2013.

  1. Dal Rassak

    Dal Rassak Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Personally I'm in the latter camp. I really only liked her character the first time she showed up, in "Indiscretion".

    It also didn't help that they had the character played by three different actresses; I still don't know why that was necessary. For me, Cyia Batten, the first actress to take on the role, and who only played her in I think two episodes, was the only one who could make Ziyal anything near likeable.
    She gave her the kind of artless innocence that the writers seemed to be going for, and which in my opinion the other two didn't pull off, making her come across as naive and annoying instead.

    [LEFT]I don't believe the character worked well overall, mainly because I find it impossible to follow why a man so consumed by ambition, and furthermore a man with seven legal offspring, should be prepared to lose his standing and reputation and have his family disown him all for the sake of one illigitimate Bajoran half-breed. And that given he was prepared to kill her in order not to risk those very things.[/LEFT]

    [LEFT]Also I have no idea what she was doing on the freighter and certainly not on the damn station during a war! She should just have been packed off to safety in the Federation somewhere...

    Basically I shared Damar's opinion of her in just about every respect and I cheered when he executed her.
    (I can see I'll be making friends among Ziyal fans here...)[/LEFT]
     
  2. heavy lids

    heavy lids Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I really liked the character, and I preferred the third actress over the other two. The freighter she was on was meant for carrying cargo. Dukat just decided to use it to fight Klingons until he captured the Bird of Prey. And there were A LOT of civilians on the station during war-time. Not that unusual.
     
  3. Gul Re'jal

    Gul Re'jal Commodore Commodore

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    I didn't mind the first two actresses, but I hated Melanie Smith's Ziyal. The actress did a really bad job in giving her life and the character was a naive half-wit, getting on my nerves each time she opened her mouth and made those idiotic, astonished facial expressions :klingon:
    Exactly! I could never understand that either. It just didn't make sense.
    And later, when his position was better and it seemed like he got his family back (one of the speeches suggested that he was on good terms at least with one of his sons), he still didn't seem to care at all for his seven kids and cared only about her. WTF? :wtf:
    Give me high five! :D
     
  4. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I liked the character - she was one of the reasons Dukat was not just a two dimensional bad guy.
     
  5. SSOASS

    SSOASS Ensign Newbie

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    I think her character wsa a good catalyst for some interesting stuff between Dukat/Kira, Dukat/Garak, and Dukat/Damar ... plus she has some nice scenes individually with Kira, Dukat, and Garak ... Overall, I see her as a positive for the show.
     
  6. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it made sense for her to be on the station. It was the only place she wouldn't be looked upon as a mongrel or an enemy, and quality of life concerns had to override any increased for her being on the station instead of the planet.

    Some of the way she was used was a little awkward, like her odd romance with Garak, but I don't find Dukat's affection for her awkward. His legitimate children had been jaded and hardened by Cardassian culture, and he was probably an absentee father. He was a fact to his legitimate children, a part of their status, rather than a loving presence. Ziyal was the only one in the galaxy capable of openly giving him affection.
     
  7. TheRoyalFamily

    TheRoyalFamily Commodore Commodore

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    Ziyal was basically the personification of Dukat's obsession with Bajor, so of course she would be extra special to him.
     
  8. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ooohhh that's good. Hadn't thought of it like that...
     
  9. Tora Ziyal

    Tora Ziyal Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Of course you all know how I feel about her. ;)

    This.

    And this.

    Me, neither. Interesting!
     
  10. BennyRussel

    BennyRussel Commander Red Shirt

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    They wanted an older actress to play her since they wanted her to have a relationship with Garak and they did not want it to seem predatory (toward a young girl.) The 2nd actress did not react well to the makeup.

    Where was she supposed to go? She was uncomfortable on Bajor because she was half-Cardassian. She was hated on Cardassia because she was half-Bajoran. She was a young woman alone.

    Should she have struck out on her own on Ferenginar? Vulcan? Earth? She had someone who cared for her on DS9 (Nerys) and she was trying to cling to a relationship with her father.

    DS9 made sense as her home. Also, Bajor signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion so the station was probably safer than most UFP planets. At least Bajor was a quick shuttle ride away.
     
  11. The Regent

    The Regent Cadet Newbie

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    Personally, I found her character grating over time. I didn't understand her choosing Garak over her father after all he'd done and gave up for her. She just kept on betraying him the moment she felt a little angry then it was right back to him because she couldn't stay mad. I found her death useful for the BSOD and Despair Event Horizon that Dukat underwent but I felt it weird that Garak didn't have one as well. I understand that, being a spy, he would hide it but he didn't even bring it up when he was fighting The Dominion on Cardassia. It was like it was like she was here for a moment then gone. I thought the character was good in theory but not well executed by the writers.

    Okay, good first post.
     
  12. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Commodore Commodore

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    I'm glad she was there. I think her introduction at the end of Indiscretion left a lot to be desired, but from then on I enjoyed seeing her. It brought out some of the good in Dukat, as well as being a friend for Kira, and something more for Garak. (That in itself was fun in the way Dukat became highly wound at the thought of something happening between the two.)

    She was perhaps written a bit too earnestly, which made her an easy target for death. I loved what effect this had on Dukat in Waltz, but then his direction after that it meandered into strangeness. But that's another story.
     
  13. WesleysDisciple

    WesleysDisciple Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I appreciated the romeo and juliet romance she had with Garak. i'll admit that straight out.
     
  14. Sigokat

    Sigokat Commander Red Shirt

    Damn I never even realized that Ziyal was played by three diffierent actresses!

    But I thought she was a good addition at first and then it just seemed she showed up every now and then, but for what purpose I couldn't really tell. I did think the relationship between her and Garak was a little...odd...but I always saw Ziyal as a younger child, maybe late teens early twenties.
     
  15. Dal Rassak

    Dal Rassak Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I've just thought of something else... I reckon Dukat got that attached to her not just because of her being symbolic of his whole Bajor obsession (good point, Royal Family), but because she is actually willing to believe he's perfect; she wants and needs to believe that. Being such an essentially narcissist individual as Dukat is, that kind of adoration on a daily basis would certainly go down like honeyed wine...
     
  16. heavy lids

    heavy lids Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    All he did was not kill her. That's it. If it wasn't for Kira, Dukat would have killed Ziyal. She really doesn't owe Dukat anything. And her choosing Garak over Dukat isn't betrayal, it's just her making her own decisions without having to get relationship approval from her father(that shit went out of style 400 years ago).
     
  17. TheRoyalFamily

    TheRoyalFamily Commodore Commodore

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    I never saw Garak as really too attached to her. He softened to her a lot, but they never really seemed that close. Oh, of course Ziyal was all hot for him, but it didn't seem reciprocated. In fact, I'd bet Garak mostly liked her for the reactions their relationship got from Dukat :rommie:
     
  18. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We have a winner!

    This is a large part of what I think is going on.

    At least personally, though, I think there is one other layer, too (though some may disagree with me on this). I think that Ziyal also embodied, in some ways, the better angels of Dukat's nature--and when she died, his last chance of "salvation" died with her.

    (This is also part of why I characterize my alternate-universe version of Dukat the way I do: in that universe, the father and daughter are said to be very similar by those who know both.)

    As far as Ziyal's naivete, I consider her psychological development to have been stunted by her captivity on Dozaria. Add to that the fact that in essence an impossible fairy tale came true for her (the idea that her father would be a knight in shining armor rather than coming to kill her), AND she was subsequently raised by a man whose psychological development was also quite immature...it's no wonder Ziyal is rather messed-up, though it displays in a much more innocent fashion than on Gul Dukat.
     
  19. trekkiebaggio

    trekkiebaggio Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I liked Ziyal. I wish she would have been used more. I would have liked to see a friendship between her and Jake, comparing what it's like to be the offspring of such prominent figures.
     
  20. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    I liked Ziyal. I think she was just the kind of character that made DS9 wuch a well-developed show.
     

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