"You should have heard him defend you.." - really??

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by StarTrek1701, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. StarTrek1701

    StarTrek1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A guy that singlehandedly saved Earth.

    And by proxy, every other Federation planet from a terrorist from the fucking future. A terrorist that took out the most powerful member planet of the UFP.

    The terrorist that made his way to Earth and crippled all other ships by activating their defense grid prefix codes.

    And he is to be demoted and sent back to the academy because some facepainted rolled up poster worshipping natives saw "a starship rising out of their oceans!".

    Then later, Admiral Robocop has the gall to tell Kirk that Pike was defending him. Whoa! If anything, the UFP + the Feds + every Federation member sentient species should be beholding Kirk to the highest of honors.

    Don't mind me. Just that particular aspect of STID really buggered me.

    Kirk's a fucking hero and savior of the Feds. Show some fucking respect!
     
  2. ComicGuy89

    ComicGuy89 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Daily business for Starfleet in both realities, actually, and I agree, their stickling for rules is one of their more annoying aspects. Still, most of their officers are willing to find some loophole, and Pike's in this case is to reinstate Kirk to at least be his XO.

    At any rate I think Pike was angrier at Kirk's recklessness and lack of humility than the actual breaking of rules.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Also, Kirk saved squat. It was Spock who did all the actual saving. And he didn't even get promoted!

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. -Brett-

    -Brett- Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They showed Kirk plenty of respect. They promoted him by several grades and gave him command of one of their newest ships. Not their fault that he blew it.

    I tend to think it was less breaking the rules than it was lying about it that got Kirk in trouble. Rightly so. Had Kirk manned up to it, he probably would have gotten off with a lecture. Instead he proved that he wasn't a man, but a teenage boy who feels no responsibility to anyone or anything. The events of the previous movie were probably the difference between being demoted and being kicked out completely.
     
  5. OneBuckFilms

    OneBuckFilms Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I do buy it, because although Kirk and crew did a great job stopping Nero, he was largely insubbordinate, flippant, and frankly he did not seem to respect the chair as Pike put it.

    He should never have been down there endangering spock's life in the first place, and though morally it was the right thing, he did alter the natural development of the Nibiru native population, and broke Starfleet's #1 directive of not interference.

    Kirk's journey in the film was about him attaining the wisdom he needed to be in command.

    It also addressed his meteoric rise from Stowaway cadet on academic suspention to captain of the Federation flag ship.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There is no further development period without the interference.
     
  7. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They didn't bust him for violating the Prime Directive.

    They busted him for lying about it on his reports. Hero or not, that's a BIG time no-no.
     
  8. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This of course assumes Prime Kirk didn't lie in his reports everytime he broke the Prime Directive.
     
  9. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk probably had a bullseye on his back from day after the Nero attacks. He jumped up the ladder, got command of the Enterprise, and was basically acting like he could do no wrong. It would be very likely that there's be senior officer or fellow captains lined up around the block to bust his nuts if they could get the dirt on him to do it.
     
  10. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ok, let's say you save a couple of people from a burning house. Does that make you an experienced fire fighter? Should everyone just bow before you and hand you everything for free?

    Stopping a bad guy doesn't say anything about his command abilities. An incident where he violates the a major directive, doesn't care and even lies about it, does.
     
  11. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So Kirk was acting like a typical Starfleet captain basically.

    So the problem here is basically that he's James T. Kirk.

    Or are you seriously going to tell me that Kirk never broke the rules.

    As for the lying in a report thing, didn't Janeway once make it sound like Kirk had a habit of fudging the details in his reports.
     
  12. BritishSeaPower

    BritishSeaPower Captain Captain

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    I found the "You've been demoted back to the academy. Oh, wait, I went and defended you offscreen and now you're just demoted to First Officer" thing odd. Kirk never really suffers from that demotion, except hanging around in the bar, and it struck me as an odd punishment, even for fabricating a report. It wasn't "You're cashiered out of the service," but rather "Go back to school!" The double demotion seemed like a hold over from a previous version of the script that was downplayed until it becomes a five minute exchange that ultimately has little bearing on the plot of the film.
     
  13. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well the confusion of reality and fiction is one problem of these films. "He is James T. Kirk, he just HAS to be Captain of the Enterprise."

    Franchise demands put over logical character development.
     
  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So basically your problem boils down to them doing something that isn't realistic aka business as usual in a Star Trek production.

    I mean they had a fraking magic torpedo that made planets for God's sake.

    And your telling me Kirk getting a three-step promotion from lieutenant to captain for saving the capital of the federation from a mad terrorist with a WMD never mind stopping him from taking out the rest of the federation breaks your suspension of disbelief

    And the main reason for this is that he acts like SLIGHTLY more of a jerk than usual.

    When the frak has Star Trek ever had logical character development?
     
  15. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

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    Yeah, Spock's preaching to Kirk about violating the prime directive made no sense, because Spock was doing the same thing by stopping the volcano!!

    Like Pike said, they were there to OBSERVE.
     
  16. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Prime Directive in TOS days seemed a bit flexible.
    I bet if there was dilithium on that planet the Federation would allow interference.

    In TOS they were gun-ho about saving the Amerind planet even though it was pre-Warp. Spock went to a lot of trouble to save that planet even putting Kirk at risk.

    It was ridiculous of Starfleet to send the 'Enterprise' to 'observe' unless Starfleet really wanted to 'observe' the captain and crew.
     
  17. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

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    Agreed about the deception on Kirk's part being key to the disciplinary action against him. Had Kirk been up-front about Nibiru, he would've gotten a lesser punishment. If punished at all.
     
  18. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except that is the case under the TOS Prime Directive.

    Its sounds like they were using the evil TNG Prime Directive in this film.
     
  19. Plum

    Plum Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just to interject, the prime directive as stated by Kirk in TOS says that starfleet officers will give their lives to preserve it. We've seen Spock, especially, balk at shooting a phaser in view of natives, let alone flying a starship over their heads.

    I tend to agree with most of what's been said in this thread but that bit seems to have not been mentioned.
     
  20. bullethead

    bullethead Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The reason why no one mentions it is because it's from The Omega Glory, an episode whose ridiculousness has been acknowledged by many, and the fact that it never comes up every other time they argue about breaking the Prime Directive.

    That said, if AbramsTrek went down that hardline route, it would explain why Kirk would bother lying about the whole Nibiru thing. He'd probably be demoted for not letting Spock die and saving the primitives, so lying about it would keep him out of trouble. Hell, the novelization seems to go with that take: