You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except if it was supposed to be there why did someone shot Data because he found it?

    Also why would they need it seeing as they had three perfectly useable ships in orbit for that stuff?
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    insurrection is honestly a movie that makes no sense on so many levels. Shame Piller went out on that note.
     
  3. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    The Federation was the only side of the deal that was interested in doing the right thing the safe way. The Sona could BS that that their ships weren't equipped or some such nonsense.
     
  4. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This all sounds just like bad writing to me. You can't beam down except sometimes. The reason Data was there. The 'road trip' with the natives. None of it seemed justified.

    Thats not to say they didn't have the same issues with the other Star Trek movies.
     
  5. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Without the Holoship, Picard's not going to figure out that transporting the inhabitants is even in the works, unless he's informed, directly. Or, if he finds out through some other means - like an intercepted communiqué. Everything revolves around this elaborate rouse that never does go anywhere. Not only that, but as Data points out, it's a cheap piece of shit, anyway, with obvious flaws that reveal its true nature. If there were no plan to use this thing, there would be no movie and Data would not have been made to go all apeshit, just so Brent would have something passionate to do and Picard would take an interest in the Baku. It does, however, have one other purpose: it reveals a previously unknown and fascinating function of Data - to serve as a floatation device!

    Weeeeeeeee ... splish! Splish!! SPLISH!!!
     
  6. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    The thing is, I feel like I get what Piller was trying to do, it just fell completely flat. At the time of the release of "Insurrection" he was comparing the movie to "The Magnificent Seven," which was based on the Japanese film "Seven Samurai." Specifically the comparison is to a group of heroes who come in to save the day not because they have a personal stake in the outcome, but because they don't: simply because they're good and they're out to do something noble.

    Now I've never seen "The Magnificent Seven," but "Seven Samurai" is one of my favorite films. And while Piller's sentiment of the selfless hero sounds nice (and I think Roddenberry would have loved it) it misses the point: the heroes of "Seven Samurai" are not all noble and certainly have a personal stake in what happens to the village they defend. One of the heroes (spoiler alert) is actually a farmer himself pretending to be a Samurai, and so his personal journey is one of proving himself worthy, while still reluctant to "die in a dungheap" from which he came, his greatest fear. The other characters are ronin, wandering Samurai without a master; they come together to fight for a cause because they have nothing else. They risk their lives and some of them will die. Furthermore, there's conflict between the villagers and the Samurai. The villagers have killed wandering Samurai before; the Samurai have brutalized villagers before. The "villains," the bandits from whom the villagers need defense, are simply starving and desperate. There actually is moral ambiguity in "Seven Samurai," whereas in "Insurrection" there is none: the good guys are all good, the bad guys are all bad, because Piller says so. Basically, "Insurrection" seems to me a version of "Seven Samurai" rewritten by someone who didn't actually understand the movie.

    Imagine turning "Seven Samurai" into "Insurrection." First, you remove all personal conflict between the Samurai, which is one of the most interesting parts of the first half of the film. Next, remove most conflict between the Samurai and the villagers. Next, you say that the bandits are actually the children of the villagers, and eventually have an joyous reunion. Everyone is happy, and no one has died or faced any consequences except the really bad leader of the bandits who deserved it. The Samurai go off smiling to their next adventure. Gag me.
     
  7. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And this is the part where this particular criticism of the film falls apart, if you haven't seen "The Magnificent Seven" you can't really say if Piller got it right or not becuase he was basing it off of "The Magnificent Seven" not "Seven Samurai."
     
  8. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    That's true enough. Have you seen "The Magnificent Seven?" If you have, can you tell me if the plot is anything like this?
    I may be wrong, but I have a feeling it isn't.
     
  9. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death? We're told the Sona don't have the life expectancy left for them to chill on the planet and the rings run a natural course. How many of them are going to die as a result of Picard's actions?

    Well that the thing with most movies, which sticks out worse with Trek movies cause we're always expecting more from them: You can usually nullify the "threat" fairly quickly with plain old common sense.

    The people we're supposed to feel sorry for are just utter assholes. Picard makes a bad situation worse. We're told the Federation backs this, Dougherty makes it clear Picard is free to leave and report whatever he wants, it probably won't change anything or it'll be to late cause of the time table they're own. Ruafo didn't care beyond Picard might cause a debate in the senate...oops council; he was cool with letting Picard report till it looked like it might fuck up his time table or might cause someone in power to change their minds.

    Insurrection feels like a cheap movie. We're given this large, grandiose question: Does the Federation violate it's principals in the name of helping its people? What cost is too high when billions of lives are on the line?

    Then every damn thing is so small scale. We're never shown anything that legitimately sets up the question. As good as the effects were, they weren't as good as First Contact's and looked television quality--at their best. We're given one tiny little village of people. There's nothing there that makes me say that there 600 people are worth more than whole worlds that could benefit from the rings.
     
  10. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So Picard encouraging debate in his supposedly democratic society is a bad thing? :wtf:
     
  11. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    If that was what he had done, no it isn't. He should have gathered up Data, ran out of the patch, made his report, and then flown back to stall things.

    What he did do was force Ruafo's hand, piss him off, and speed and escalate the matter and then decided to "slow things down".

    If I was doing things in a "better" order:

    * Picard "saves" Data. Leaves the patch.
    * Makes his report, gets some BS about it being under review or the Federation is aware of the matter and will update him.
    * Picard takes the yacht back to the planet, sneaks past he S'ona.
    * Riker stays on station to wait for an answer.
    * Incredible journey to nowhere.
    * Riker gets orders to have the S'ona and Dougherty halt the operation till the Council can review the new information.
    * Dougherty obeys orders, gets killed, Big space battle as Riker tries to stop the S'ona.
    * Pretty as is from there.

    Actually...cut the S'ona out all together.

    Have the Enterprise crew being the ones doing the observation. Starfleet gets the news of the miracle rings, decision made to harvest the planet. Warp in Dougherty with his flagship and a couple of more smaller ships); same ground "battle" but Federation on Federation, Space battle Federation on Federation.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Now it sounds like Picard wouldn't have been investigating stuff about why the Son'a shot Data without being provoked and lied about it ad wouldn't have found out what was going on since Dougherty wasn't being upfront about anything until he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I got the impression that the Son'a were beyond ANY kind of help. Their degeneration was too far gone for that. So even if they'd been exposed to concentrated doses of the planet's rings, they wouldn't get anything from it.
     
  14. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    They seemed pretty certain that a concentrated burst of radiation would save them. Even Dougherty seemed to think the science supported that theory. That's what I'm saying: Picard condemned how many S'ona to death? by not trying? Not just on the ships but the colonies as well.

    The happy "dawwww, the family is all together again" ending kind of gets fucked over when you realize: Parents are going to get to watch this children whether and die cause they refused to help them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  15. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    The problem is if the planet doesn't belong to the Federation, then Son'a could just invoked the Prime Directive and keep the Federation out of this conflict and the Ba'ku would have been screwed.

    Its a bad story when the villains could have easily won, but didn't due to massive incompetence. That is the problem with the Son'a, they are not unsympathetic, so do not make for good players in a moral dilemma or have any pathos, but they are not evil enough to be truly scary or even remotely menacing. They are at best window dressing.
     
  16. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    I'm with you BillJ.
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why would Dougherty be "up front" with Picard?

    Picard was a subordinate.

    And how many people in the Federation? Plus billion of people in the Federation who could have had an improvement in their quality of life.

    :)
     
  18. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do you think that during, say, World War II, that members of the military did nothing but fight the war 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? People always have need of relaxation, entertainment, stress relief, and so forth. It's why, even in the midst of horrible wars, we have the USO which brings entertainers to the soldiers in the field.

    Sisko and company stopping for some time on the holodeck is perfectly realistic, even during a massive war such as they were fighting.
     
  19. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Hope they've classified the location of the planet. Can you imagine war weary populations finding out there is a place that could cure themselves and their loved ones? You think the Romulans or the Klingons give a shit about the Baku?
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
  20. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    except well, the Son'a, who are still out there, and DOMINION ALLIES as a result of Picard's actions here, apparently know the location and... they knew it before, too, obviously to come to Dougherty with the plan.


    Again, the movie just makes no sense. Why don't the Son'a just broadcast to other Alpha Quadrant powers the location and properties of the planet?

    Is Starfleet now going to defend the Baku against any incoming threat for the foreseeable future? Is the planet now a Federation protectorate, despite the Federation getting NOTHING out of that arrangement?:confused: