You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Perhaps. But I'm not the first. ;)

    (In the novels, IIRC, Dougherty actually was S31)
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except, the planet isn't surround by the Federation but separate from it, according to Picard the planet is IN FEDERATION SPACE.

    During these threads I like to bring up New Orleans, since it's founding as a small port and trading post the nation it belonged to changed a number of times, the people who lived in the city had no say in these exchanges.

    New York used to be New Amsterdam, it's belonged to three countries. Apparently the people living there didn't mind moving from the Dutch to the British, or later to America.

    But they never were ASKED.

    :)
     
  3. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I disagree. The movie, if you follow Star Trek, has high stakes. The graphics are light years ahead of anything in the series, including BOBW. If feels like a movie to me.

    The best Trek poses a moral question. Are we still the people that annex land for the sake of the community? According to what I see on this site, even after the eminent domain controversy, we are. Star Trek's morality is, at its best, foresees the future. That's why DS9 is so poignant now in the wake of 9/11.

    Yes. As a man who has a chronic medical condition, seeing Geordi with his eyesight was emotional, impactful. Thinking about the uses of technology, and this movie helped to further that thought in my mind, and how it has put people out of a job, that was a powerful thought. Hearing Data describe his longing for understanding what it is like to be a child, watching Data act in the best interest of Starfleet, hearing Picard's voice when he talked about ending Data, all of those things stirred my emotions.

    Have you ever watched a Dramedy? I feel this movie is one. While we see Picard dance the mambo, we also see his rather serious question moments later (his mind has been working as the scientist he is!) "How old are you?" You can appreciate the mixing of the two genres and too many people are looking for pure darkness and thinking that makes a better movie.

    This movie is subtle. It speaks in whispers. The only person who doesn't, is F. Murray Abraham.

    I don't see him as wacky. The first episode Data stands in the middle of the bridge and recites the definition of "snoop." If you don't like that, you don't understand Data. Data isn't "wacky," he's not human. He still doesn't, with his emotions, know the subtle workings of human behavior.

    This isn't about the Ba'ku, this is about the Federation. From Picard's perspective, they are betraying everything that the Federation stands for. That is why he gives up the uniform. At face value, this movie will not knock your socks off. Think about it, watch it again, and the subtleties come alive.

    There was no other option. They tried to end the way the Ba'ku were living. They feel as disgusted by technological advancements as you or I feel about rape. The Son'a tried to end the Ba'ku before they were banished from the planet. Hate them all you want, don't like the movie, but I think they are more sympathetic than you realize. They have built a culture and they have to defend it. It wasn't about immortality, it's that their "young people" were trying to make the same mistakes they wish to avoid. They are not us. They look like us, but they are from another culture. We have to respect that.

    First, they are fit because of the rings. You are expecting immortal people to be fat and bald?

    Go re-watch the episode (Journey's End, 7th season). He lobbies Nacheyev, pointing out that her orders violate his morality. He tries to get them to leave their land, he tries to stop the Cardassians from coming on the planet. Besides, if that were true, someone has to act exactly the same in similar situations? Maybe he learned from that mistake, views it as a mistake. When I was 16, I was a conservative. By the age of 23, I was a liberal. Would you say my character is "inconsistent," accusing me of being a racist as the reason for the transformation?
     
  4. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And what happens when a doctor lets a man die because he knows someone needs a heart in the hospital? What happens when someone feels that their culture is violated by cutting into the dead body and removing anything?
     
  5. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    If that's what "Insurrection" was supposed to do, it failed miserably. It didn't pose a moral question, it gave you the answer: it said, "We're the good guys, those ugly ones are the bad guys, now don't ask any questions."

    It's always interesting to me to compare and contrast audience reactions. I remember sitting in the movie being out of popcorn about two thirds of the way through the film wondering, "When am I actually supposed to care about anything that's happening?"

    The thing is I really wanted to like "Insurrection." I was sick to death of time travel and definitely didn't want another bang-bang shoot-em-up. I had high hopes Piller would write a great feature-length character story the way he did for DS9's "Emissary." After seeing "Insurrection," I could't believe the same writer penned both stories.

    It didn't need to be darker. It just needed to be a better movie.

    There's nothing subtle about it. The good guys are beautiful, the bad guys are fugly, and our heroes are always right even when they're wrong.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    From the Futurama episode, "The Series Has Landed".

     
  7. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    The Baku are as disgusted by technology as we are by rape? They seemed pretty okay with it when Picard and co. were using their evil technology to defend them.
     
  8. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. We lose everything we are."
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They had to have used technology to force and keep the S'ona off-world. There also would've had to be a spaceship available for the S'ona to use to leave.

    Little about the Ba'ku makes sense.
     
  10. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Ah, yes. Very high-minded words. All it actually means, though is that the Baku want to sit on their hands while Picard and his crew risk their lives to defend the all-important Baku way of life. I'm seeing a theme with these people. Everyone else in the universe is disposable fodder in the service of Baku moral superiority.
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You're doing a great job of looking past the basic issue to things that would need to be discussed if and when there was a movement in such a direction.
     
  12. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    And welcome to every "horror story" ever told by someone that "knows someone that the EMT/Paramedics let die cause they were an organ donor".

    And by the way: the portions of the UK already moving towards doing "presumed permission" for organ donation.
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I used to believe in that kind of crap. I stopped it, for two reasons:

    1) It is incredibly insulting to medical professionals of all kinds, to ever think that they would deliberately let someone die, for ANY reason.

    2) In any case, if you are an organ donor and you go to the hospital when you're sick, the team treating you is completely separate from the transplant team. So the doctor in charge of saving your life has nothing to do with transplants!
     
  14. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Here's thing with the Baku: They are not native to the planet, they're not natively immortal, and no one is telling they have to "upgrade" their lives or embrass technology. All that would happen is that they'd pack up and move to another planet, and if the wanted to go back to living without technolgy they're free to do it.



    Yeppers. It also defies basic common sense. As if such a thing could be ongoing and common enough that it's a real concern and yet some how the people doing it would somehow avoid prosecution or fail to bring notice to the issue.
     
  15. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So what they still colonized it meaning its their planet.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not necessarily. It just depends who the planet belonged too when they settled it and how the Federation came upon ownership of it.

    Even if it's vacant, someone can't move onto your property and claim it as their own.
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    By all indications, the Ba'ku were the first sentient beings to claim their planet.
     
  18. Vasquez Rocks

    Vasquez Rocks Commodore Commodore

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    But what about the Baku children and young adults who were born on the planet? Aren't they now natives of the planet and immortal.
     
  19. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    That may have been a good point...shame the movie never brought that up.
     
  20. RyuRoots

    RyuRoots Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be honest, I stopped caring about whether they "counted" as native or not by the time the movie finished running because the Baku are sanctimonious hypocrites; at least the only mouthpieces we get for them are. They decry using technology and fighting, but they're A-okay with it being used FOR them as long as they don't personally press the buttons/pull the triggers. Plus, they seem like one of these villages hiding a dark secret anyway, with their perfect little village of white people with perfectly clean garments despite allegedly working fields and stuff all day. Don't even get me started on this vague "you take something away from the man" BS either. You take WHAT away from the man when use use tools to help with tasks?! Apparently nothing, going by your fancy irrigation system.

    I was rooting for the Sona by the end.