You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. urbandefault

    urbandefault Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it's selfish to expect that someone should give you what they have, even if they don't want to--or even know that you need it.

    If someone does not offer what they have, like good people should, what then? Declare that they are not good people and take it from them?

    What happens when you have something that someone else wants? Give it up freely, or be declared a "selfish bastard" and have it taken from you by force?

    The big picture here is that this is a situation that should have been between the Baku and Sona. Regardless of any magical particles, the Federation should not have become involved until the age old dispute was settled.

    Again, this attitude is troublesome to me.
     
  2. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'll hardly defend the Federation's obvious shortfalls in research regarding the situation...though it's unclear how far along their research actually was before Picard arrived and escalated the situation. That said, Dougherty did push to halt the operation once he realized the true nature of the conflict.

    Then Ru'afo killed him.

    But let's say that Dougherty had lived. Assuming the Feds had pulled back, I think we all know how matters would have proceeded...the Son'a walk away with the particles and the Baku die. Is that a preferable outcome? Are we just concerned with Our Heroes coming out of this with their morals intact?

    If you want to say the Baku should have been asked first, I don't disagree, though I think the asking would have gone precisely nowhere, since even when the Baku become aware of what's at stake they don't show any willingness to discuss the matter. The greater concern to me is that you're still left with one hell of a problem because you've got the Fountain of Youth sitting on a planet that's essentially undefended.

    As for whether the Baku should be expected to share...if it's selfish of me to think that if you have the Cure for Cancer then you should be expected to share it, color me selfish and unapologetic about it. I'm not saying that it should be taken by force, but my sympathies towards, say, a country that was willing to just sit on such a boon to a large population would be quite limited. But perhaps I'm biased given that my grandmother died of cancer.

    Speaking as an American, my understanding is that we do a damn lot of good for the welfare of other countries' populations, and if we had the ability to and just sat on it? I wouldn't blame anyone else for resenting us, and possibly trying to take it by force. How do you justify hoarding -medical benefits-?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  3. Vasquez Rocks

    Vasquez Rocks Commodore Commodore

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    What about all the Ba'ku that are under 309 years old and were born on the planet? Wouldn't they have some right to call it their birthplace.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Problem is that if the Federation follows their own moral imperatives, the S'ona cook the Ba'ku and then leave and share the particles with Federation opponents.

    Two, no one can ask the Ba'ku to leave. If they say yes, then there's no movie. If they say no, then they completely lose the sympathetic angle.
     
  5. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    1. It's pretty clear from the movie that the Baku would have said no. Look at the conversation Picard has with Anij after he discovers the truth about them.

    2. the movie doesn't WANT the Baku to be asked directly, because that sabotages the movie. If the answer is "yes," there is no movie. If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.


    3. The ONLY thing stopping the Baku from being removed BY FORCE by the Son'a is that the Son'a assume the planet IS a Federation planet because it's in their space. If it's NOT, then the Son'a would have no reason to deal with the Federation at all, and the Federation has no reason to protect the Baku from what is basically a civil war.




    The Baku are screwed either way, because the movie couldn't think of a premise that was consistent and made sense.
     
  7. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    This seems to be exactly what happened anyway.
     
  8. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For a significant minority of fans, yes. It's why I have trouble watching it myself. SFDebris' review of it is really funny because he really rips into the Baku for their selfishness , smug superiority, and hypocrisy.
     
  9. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    Yes, but they're pretty and the bad guys are ugly. Isn't that all you really need to know?
     
  10. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure. Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Sure its happened throughout history on Earth but we know now its not right.

    And if the excuse for taking over the planet is 'its OK because we need it'. That's the excuse every invader, dictator, megalomaniac conqueror has used to justify their invasion of another territory on Earth.

    Good luck on the Baku and Sona. Doesn't mean I like them. Doesn't mean the Federation should 'protect' them.
    And if there are 600 Baku and 601 Sona and all the Sona vote for destruction then maybe the Federation can take their planet.
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except ....

    In Hitchhiker's there was no effort being made to safely move the population.

    The population was there was indigenious.

    The population wasn't just 600 people, all living in a single valley.

    But other than those facts ...

    :)
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    I've just never been all that attached to "property". If someone told me I had to move out of my house tomorrow to make way for something that benefits the whole community, I'd shrug my shoulders and move.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it's also one thing to talk about property in a contemporary context, and quite another to talk about it in a future where you could theoretically spend your entire life in a holodeck and be happy to do so. Or be moved effortlessly and have a new home set up for you free of charge that's at least as good as the one you left.

    It's not like the Federation was going to just dump the Baku off on a Demon-class planet.

    ...though some of us might think the Baku had it coming.
     
  14. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    you'd be pretty "cheesed off" about moving so that a bunch of scientists can get at a medical miracle that can help billions?




    Wow
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, the real elephant in the room here is the immortality thing, isn't it? The Baku are placing their immortality above the needs of the billions in the Federation.


    Ironically, it's what Picard condemns Soran for in Generations. The nexus and immortality was more important for him than the hundreds of millions in the Veridian system.


    But then Soran was meant to be a villain, whereas the Baku...
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  17. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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  18. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal. For the same reasons the Son'a want the rings, the Ba'ku could want them as well. They would be forced to start over, and this time, without the natural rings. Their aversion to technology, and the fact that lifespans will only be "doubled," not made immortal, means they will not have the same things they had if they were on another planet. The Son'a don't want to live in the Briar Patch. They didn't 100 years ago, either. They want to be a player in the political powers of the time, as well as live 300 years. So all this back and forth is really for nothing.


    No, it doesn't. You are supposed to be shocked that the Federation would be willing to destroy a culture in order to advance their own selfish causes. It doesn't matter what's on the other side of that. The ends don't justify the means, according to Picard and anyone else with a soul in the 24th century. 600 people or not, this is a unique culture. They apprentice for 30 years, they use essentially mindfulness to heighten the sense of the moment, they don't explore the galaxy anymore. It is a unique culture. One, that at looking at the script, is a possible reaction to the Dominion War without screwing DS9. All life is almost in ruin. The Federation started a war and people could get sick of space travel because of it. Some of us don't wallow in our trauma. We move on and embrace everything we hold dear, taking special delight in it.

    Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine. I'm going to launch the injector." The rouse that this is a medical advancement keeps them from fighting a war with the Federation. It is in Federation space. If they went around destroying planets, the Federation would look into why. Picard is treating them as a colony in Federation space. It will destroy their culture because the entire planet has to be uninhabited. This denies the right of life of everything on the planet, including the plants, animals, and the Ba'ku. Simply because you do not like the culture (I don't know why you don't like them), doesn't mean they are worthy of being destroyed, especially in the 24th century Star Trek has created.

    I doubt we'll change each other's minds, but the script isn't as bad as you think.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    You mean the same Federation that tries to use the Prime Directive as a moral imperative to not help species facing extinction? The same Federation that sneaks around on other people's worlds in the name of "exploration"?

    This doesn't happen until Picard sticks his nose where it didn't belong and complicates the operation.
     
  20. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That makes the assumption that the Baku wouldn't have the exact same access to the radiation from the particles as the rest of the Federation's population.

    They admittedly would no longer have exclusive access.

    That was Ruafo acting out of growing desperation, the medical treatments keeping him alive would no longer work. Prior to that the Sona were trying to avoid harming the Baku. Even after ordering the injector launched, Ruafo still acted to protect the Baku who were already off the planet.

    RU'AFO: Separate the Starfleet personnel and secure them in the aft cargo hold.

    GALLATIN: The shields in that section won't protect them against the thermolytic reaction.


    :)
     

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