You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    indeed, yet another point about the movie that makes no sense. Dougherty outright says that he's acting on orders from the council then gets freaked out about Riker... going to contact the council. So... he's going to inform them about something they know about, and gave the orders about.:lol:



    It's like no one even proofread the script. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too:


    "Picard and his crew go rogue, defying the Federation!"


    "oh but wait, it's actually just one rogue admiral! Except... he's not rogue because he's under orders from the council!" But wait! They didn't know what they were doing!"


    what lousy writing.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, he didn't...

    Not only that... he blew off the orders to go to the Goren system to mediate a territorial dispute. Someone else likely gave those orders. The Enterprise is not Picard's personal pleasure craft.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They also seem to forget that it would take the Enterprise two days to get out of the Briar Patch to even communicate with the Federation. The script is a complete and utter mess.
     
  4. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wrong. 1 day to reach the patch, 1 day to reach the planet.

    Dougherty lied to the council. They probably greenlit the particle extraction, but he hid the forced relocation part. That's what Picard wanted the council to know.

    They FIRED at Data as soon as he found the holoship. Dougherty then lied about the incident. And they fired at Data, Picard and Anij as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was illegal and the council didn't know about it.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The S'ona fired at them, make sure you're putting all the information out there.

    The holoship is just another piece that makes absolutely no sense. Why hide a starship with a cloaking device and transporters in the bottom of a lake?
     
  6. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Picard was right about what?
    Interfering in an internal dispute or not interfering in an internal dispute?
    The dispute between the Son'a and Baku was just like one Klingon family against another. I agree the Federation should not have interfered one way or the other.
    Morally maybe but not as a Federation Officer. Even morally -I'm not so sure. If the Baku had means they were not prepared to use then that's their own fate. They were prepared to use weapons to kill Data and presumably their 'means' was how they got rid of dissidents (Sona) in the past.

    I see that you think the battle in the hills was classic trek but it was done so badly that I didn't enjoy it. The cliched kids losing his worm-thing and getting lost. People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety? I mean who cared, where was the tension, the drama?
    I really only care about my heroes.

    I'm also thinking that say the Sona requested membership in the Federation, would it be denied because the Baku refused? Does every single person have to agree?
    And say if the Baku were not aliens but an old Federation colony, I think the Federation would have no hesitation in taking over the planet.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One day or two, it really doesn't make a difference...

    "In six hours, every living thing in this system will be dead or dying."
     
  8. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, the Son'a, who worked with Admiral Dougherty, protected a hidden Starfleet ship with force against other Starfleet personel. They worked together to keep it a secret, and were ready to destroy Data because of that.

    It makes all the difference when you incorrectly cited it as an example for how much of a mess the script is supposed to be.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I like how you edited out why one day or two didn't make a difference... :rolleyes:
     
  10. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Why? That 6 hours line makes no difference here. There is no exact time given between the Enterprise destroying the Son'a ships, Picard's and Anij's capture and Rua'fo's ultimatum. Also considering that at the beginning of the film the Enterprise entered the Briar Patch at 1/3 impulse speed, but later Riker decided to go full impulse speed.
     
  11. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    there's no evidence that Dougherty lied to the council. The entire set-up of the observation post(with a large group of Starfleet personnel) as well as the holoship indicates that the council was fully aware that the planet had a small number of inhabitants. Once again you're forced to try to fill in plot holes with speculation that contradicts the movie in order to make your argument.


    All Picard says is that he's going to "put a FACE ON THE RELOCATION" he doesn't say that the council has to be informed that there IS a relocation.
     
  12. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. Doughterty didn't give a sit is Picard reported him, beyond he didn't want to deal with extra paperwork and slow down the process even more.

    At best, you could argue that Picard might have caused a PR nightmare for the service and the council. Till a war weary population found out there was a fountain of youth in the Federation's backyard, and then you'd see the Baku get properly fucked over.

    Edit to add:

    From The Script (can't find the full clip online)

    So the council knew and went ahead with the project. Why? I'll let the Admiral explain:

     
  13. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "People who we didn't know or care about were ruthlessly beamed away to safety?"

    Haha!!! :rommie:

    I do find myself agreeing with you, mostly. The Baku were walking that line between their Moral High Ground and some suggestion at having been driven to keep their technology and weaponry up-to-date because of the big, bad, ugly world outside. The whole situation between they and their exceedingly ancient offspring was entirely too ambiguous. If not for the one being Beauty Impaired and Picard going ahead and siding with the Pretties ... I'm not entirely sure an audience would know with whom to sympathize, or side with.

    I suspect that the vagueness was deliberate, so that we would never know who the bad guy really was. But F. Murray Abraham was never truly a bad guy. Until he offed the Admiral, that is. After that, of course, he decided to strike his colours. But I liked how this movie went down the Moral Dilemma route, rather than a clear Goodies/Badies kind of picture. And if I've said this once, I've said it a thousand times: INSURRECTION is entertaining popcorn fare, as far as I'm concerned. I find it most enjoyable. And for what it attempted, more than what it actually accomplished, this particular feature is a fine feather in Jonathan Frakes' cap.
     
  14. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It would reflect better on the movie if it was meant to portray the conflict in an ambiguous way, but I just don't see it. Everything from the beauty of the Baku, the ugliness of the Son'a, and the fact that "our heroes" all line up on the side of the Baku indicates that we are meant to see the conflict in pure black and white terms.
     
  15. publiusr

    publiusr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Politically you can look at it either way. You might call them libertarians who are private property types not themselves native, and that this is eminent domain ("takings") of the state, in which Starfleet is to the Left--or that it is environmental exploitation, and, the Sona are to the right.

    You can argue either side on this...
     
  16. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    And I doubt Piller had either such superficial political nonsense in mind.
     
  17. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So you're saying the Federation Council okayed the use of an illegal cloaking device?

    No, its not eminent domain doesn't work that way.
     
  18. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not sure if they specifically okayed a holoship, but they probably gave Dougherty the parameters of "removal without violence and without the inhabitants finding out," which the holoship would do rather nicely at.:techman:
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    For all we know, it is exactly how eminent domain works in the 24th century Federation.
     
  20. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the movie makes it clear that he had something like the forced relocations of cultures(like American Indians) in mind. Unfortunately, Piller totally botched the dilemma to the point where there's no connection to that analogy, and he seems to have forgotten that TNG did an episode WITH AMERICAN INDIANS where Picard came to the opposite conclusion than he did here.:lol: