You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lance, Nov 8, 2013.

  1. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Probably because their also the ones still going on about it.

    Um, they kind of chose to follow his lead on this one, there was a scene and everything.

    I mean hell Riker even pointed out that without the uniform he couldn't order them to do crap when he tried shoo them away while he was planing his one man war thing.
     
  2. Shaka Zulu

    Shaka Zulu Commodore Commodore

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    And this is why I think Star Trek Into Darkness is better than Star Trek-Insurrection (and maybe even Star Trek: First Contact.)
     
  3. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not only is STID far, far better than INS, I think it's insulting for the former to be compared to the latter. It's like comparing The Empire Strikes Back to The Phantom Menace.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek Into Darkness is miles ahead of any of the NextGen films, in my opinion.
     
  5. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    I'd put First Contact ahead of either of the Abrams movies, but yeah, they're both better than Insurrection. At least JJ seemed to know what kind of movies he wanted to make.
     
  6. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    I thought the little mouseweasel was unnecessary, but hey. They had the technology to do it, so ...

    It had its issues, but so does everything about Star Trek. Overall, I like Insurrection. It's a Star Trek movie. I like Star Trek movies.
     
  7. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well the debate about how far the fedeation or really any society should go to preserve said society and at what point they have crossed the line is a little more identifible then if a society where people live to their mid to late 100s and have technology to over come disabilities and people generally not being afraid of death needing to screw over people by stealing their planet to live even longer just for the hell of it.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Is it clear that the Baku would have been any more screwed over than the Son'a already had been if they actually were forced to relocate? For instance, would they even develop the medical issues the Son'a were already faced with, or is it merely a case of "Boo hoo, I have to move from a planet that gave me immortality my species was merely lucky enough to stumble upon before anyone else to one that doesn't"?

    Because honestly, in an age of holodecks and transporters and replicators, the whole "but it's my home" argument means virtually nothing to me. Hell, that's one problem I have with the Maquis as well.

    The Baku didn't do anything to earn the immortality they had, they were just lucky enough to find the planet before anyone else did. And while the relocation situation was obviously mishandled, their apparent refusal to do anything to assist anyone other than themselves makes them completely unsympathetic to me. The "they were never asked" argument is ludicrous as well, since there was nothing stopping them from offering during the events of the film, and there's something kind of sickening about the idea that people should have to ask for better health...no pun intended.
     
  9. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    What I don't get is how could the Baku have stopped the Federation or the S'ona from landing colonists on the far side of the planet? For that matter, drop a few shield generators and a cloak around said colony and the Baku would be none the wiser.
     
  10. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    I have Insurrection playing now.

    The Son'a could have destroyed their "home" planet on their own if they wanted to by collecting the radiation or whatever. It seems to me that they didn't have the means to move the population from the planet, and they (even if subconsciously) didn't want to murder their families. They needed the Fed's resources to move the Baku to achieve their goals.

    Ru'afo was just batshit crazy. ;)
     
  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I kind of agree. As has been alluded to before, I think Picard's actions, right or wrong, inflamed the situation. I think originally the Son'a just wanted the Baku out of the way, but when the E arrived and started making an issue of things Ru'afo's already tenuous acceptance of the relocation situation flew out the window.

    In an ironic twist that Picard should be able to appreciate, Ru'afo's crew went right along with him instead of anyone standing up to him and telling him his behavior was out of line.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But the thing is we don't even know if the Baku would care if they set up a colony on the other side of the planet, as they were never asked.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This whole "they were never asked" argument seems less and less credible to me and more and more like a rationalization. Is there some reason they couldn't have offered? They claim to be pacifists but are apparently quite content to let violence erupt all around their pacifism.

    Furthermore it seems that in a realistic depiction of the situation they would have been asked at some point, so "they weren't asked" to me sounds more like "the movie was written badly".
     
  14. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Yeppers.

    All it would have taken in a couple of lines. An offer to let the S'ona/Federation colonize another part of the planet. Doughtery agrees, Ruafo doesn't, movie moves forward as it did.
     
  15. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well I don't know about you but if I was dealing with members of a foriegn power who I had found spying on me and then found out they planed to kidnap me to steal my home under some Neoconish might makes right justification I doubt I would want to negotiate with them and would proceed to call the cops to come and lock them up.
     
  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What cops were the Baku supposed to call?

    In any event, if you're really a pacifist then don't just sit back while people fight all around you, do your part for peace by offering a compromise.

    And I don't give a damn how badly you've been treated, if you're going to sit on, say, a cure for cancer for even hundreds of innocent people because a few individuals treated you badly? You're no better than they are.

    Speaking as a Jew, the idea that Nazi medical research, however ill-gotten, should be swept under the carpet because of how it was obtained horrifies me. If -anything- positive can be gained from the research, then we should utilize it. The idea that that's legitimizing the methodology is bollocks. The dead are dead, and I can't imagine that they would all have an attitude of, "The way you discovered this medicine killed me, so no, I don't want you to use it to cure others."

    Innocent people should not be made to suffer out of little more than spite, and if that's what the Baku would think then they're even more petty than the movie arguably makes them out to be.
     
  17. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's not a cure for cancer its a vanity item seeing they already live to their 160s at least and are apparently up afraid of death.

    So excuses me if I'm not sympathetic to the federation's supposed plight since I see living to my mid to late 100s as a good run.

    Old age isn't suffering and the federation had better alternatives than acting like imperialistic assholes.

    I really don't get why people are over estimating the particles, they were said to possibly make people live longer and somehow cure a condition the guy who had it up to this point didn't give a crap about and was kind of offended when people made it sound like he wasn't normal.

    It was never said to cure diseases, or resurrect that dead, and it wasn't even immortality.

    In fact it's kind of pathetic next to half the crap the federation already has.
     
  18. AgentCoop

    AgentCoop Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    ^Geordi's perceived attitude towards his blindness (I'm assuming that's who you're referring to) is beside the point. The particles were able to spontaneously cure a condition that is beyond the abilities of Federation science to fix. Who knows what else it could do?
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly. It's clearly established in the movie, multiple times, that the particles are capable of far more than merely prolonging lifespans.

    Curing the Son'a, for instance.
     
  20. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    This is why the Son'a was unneeded. They could have done the same story using a Federation crew, out looking for refugee worlds for the Post War Federation. Using the Son'a makes it look like a vanity issue. We're not shown Federation citizens suffering/dying, who could have been saved by the rings. It's implied, but we're never shown; hell, even a mention of a inbound medical ship filled with refugees would have worked.

    As I said up thread, even use the Enterprise crew; with the Federation coming in to stake a claim after the miracle properties of the rings were discovered and the Enterprise's crew splitting over the issue.