Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by QuarkforNagus, May 23, 2014.
One of the things I loved about the Vash character was the way she completely outsmarts both Picard and Q.
Watch the episode Captain's Holiday – Vash outsmarts Picard. Vash, not Picard, was the one that realized who the Vorgons were and that they were the ones who originally stole the Tox Uthat. Picard was about to hand the Tox Uthat over to the bad guys. Vash stopped him.
In the episode Qpid, Vash was not intimidated by Q in the least and she completely derailed Q's little scenario by cozying up to Sir Guy and talking her way out of the execution. It was Picard's gallantly heroic, if somewhat sexist, insistence on saving his ladylove that gave Q the win. Q admitted he had no control over the Robin Hood scenario and that at noon the next day it would end. If Picard had left well enough alone Vash and Sir Guy would have had their little mock wedding and the game would be over. This was why Q looked absolutely panicked when Vash comes down the steps with Sir Guy. She had beaten Q at his own game.
In Vash we have a well written, intelligent and interesting female character.
Feminism is a strange thing. It can sometimes be incredibly hypocritical depending on whether it's the bra-burning style of feminism or the Madonna brand of celebrating sluttiness and vanity.
What we have now with the defense of Rihanna's outfit and Miley Cyrus is the latter, in which case any criticism of the relatively tame 6 of 9 catsuit or miniskirts seem quaint and misguided.
Shouldn't the miniskirt be quant?
I don't think that this is a fair criticism. Feminism is just a general belief that all genders should be equal. Different people who identify themselves as feminists just have different ideas and opinions.
Heck, we're all Trekkies, and the Star Trek XI+ board (for example) is basically a warzone.
Come to think of it, I do see two types of feminism stemming from the same source-- one is the 'stop objectifying women by making them sex objects', and the other is the 'I don't need a man's permission to express my sexuality' feminism.
I think the question that's being asked is, did Seven really need to be in that skin type catsuit that was obviously giving the male viewers something to look at? Or was it because the suit was functional and practical?
I think Counselor Troi pulled off the 'sexy uniform' nicely. Those green and blue dresses with the plunging neckline looked both casual and very sexy at the same time.
The NU Trek women's dress uniforms are very hot, with short skirts and yet have the sleek formal military look. But I think the producers knew that and did it on purpose.
They want it to be sexy and show skin, and have no problem with it, hence the "what wrong with putting women in sexy uniforms that show some skin?" attitude.
But if you really want to know what makes both types of feminists mad, ...look at the scene in STID where Dr. Marcus strips to her underwear in front of Kirk.
And even though it was required in the plot, noticed the frontal pose to make sure the cameras and audience gets a full view of everything
Yes it's not a place to raise even the slightest criticism, unless you want a new one ripped. And NuTrek is a prime example of how not to write female characters.
I'm shocked to discover that Trek fans will vigorously defend a film they like!
I dunno, they might have done a better job in two movies that the previous five TV shows and ten films combined.
Might have, but didn't.
It's close though. TOS and TNG put the series way behind.
Basically, after Tasha died, the only two female roles were two different kinds of Doctor or 'carer', which is a stereotypically feminine role. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the stupid Q episode where the only two castmembers who had swordfighting training and experience were Gates and Marina, and they were given the role of 'smashing pots on guards heads'.
If Gene's original plan had continued (or Marina or Gates had left instead), Tasha would have A. Balanced out the male-heavy cast and B. given us a non-stereotypical female role. Which I consider two of the biggest problems with TNG.
Lots of fans can't stand Troi. I think Tasha would have grown on us, given more time. I mean, her part in Yesterday's Enterprise is excellent. I think she needed more time to grow into the role.
Agreed. Seven looked awesome in her Starfleet Uniform- way cooler than the silver catsuit.
Yes! Great analogy. There are many different 'feminisms' but they all branch from the idea that men and women should have equal rights. Even though Star Trek screws it up a lot in the execution, I think it's obvious that it basically 'believes' in this concept.
I don't think that is accurate, what you just described is egalitarianism, feminism is the advocacy of females within a society.
For years women on college campuses have out-numbered men, yet feminists (as a group) do not push for programs and policies to increase male numbers in bring them in parity with the females.
The Trek Literature section might be worse, one of my first posting was a minor critique of then resent pro novels, oh my God you would have though I burned down the author's house.
I don't realize that in Trek Literature, current works (and their authors) were only to be praised and adored.
According to 1987 or 2014 criteria? Of course, today having a female doctor or psychologist isn't a bold exercise of female empowering, but I don't think female doctor and psychologist were so common on screen during the 80s. Of course, at large it remains in the traditionnal zone of the typical female role of taking care of the others, but it's not when baby-boomers (generation of both McFadden and Sirtis) were at University that women became in majority in North-American medecine faculties. Of course, there was already a lot of female doctor and psychologist in 1987, but it wasn't so obviously stereotypical.
Yeah the principal problem with the execution is that it is so obvious that the default setting for so many writers is 'male'. You more often see female characters introduced as an adjunct of a male or because she has to be female (like Ensign Wildman). Seven of Nine would have been a man if Kim had left but they made her a woman when Kes was written out to keep the cast 'balanced'. Since when is 6 men and 3 women balanced?
Trek was making some gains by featuring women in more varied jobs but NuTrek screwed it up by ignoring two of the three recurring women instead of updating them and by leaving out trailblazing female characters like Number One and T'Pau in favour of a string of male characters. Weak.
Other shows like Farscape and NuBSG did a better job with women, featuring them in varied roles and independently of male characters more often than Trek. I was disappointed that NuBSG just converted previously male characters to women rather than updating the pre-existing ones though. A modern day Cassiopeia who was a mix of Vash and Enara would have been great.
Vash was really cool though. And Ro too.
I agree, absolutely. All that said and agreed with, Voyager is a Trek series that my female friends seem to love more than the average male Trek viewer does. There could be many reasons for this to be so, but I suspect one of the reasons is that it is fundamentally a story about a woman- and that's rare in sci-fi (and generally). Yes the ideal cast balance should be 50% women but in a world where most shows are either all men or heavily male dominated (particularly Trek), 33% is, while not 'good', it is 'better' than all other Trek shows.
Yes, you can rightfully critique Seven for being a pinup ice queen fantasy. But you can't say that the character herself did not somewhat overcome that initial reading, that she wasn't flawed and complex and interesting unto herself. Voyager, arguably, became the 'Janeway and Seven and the Doctor' show. That is a very powerful statement for a lot of female viewers. My wife absolutely loves Voyager because of the Janeway/Seven relationship, and watching the show again with her made me appreciate Voyager a LOT more, because of that perspective.
Again I absolutely agree with this. Trek should be forward-looking and progressive. The new films are backward looking and have a very regressive viewpoint as a result- and I can't tell you how sad that makes me.
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