Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Mr_Homn, Jun 22, 2013.
He wouldn't get in because he touches himself at night.
I don't know that I'd place much credibility in Kurn's statements. Besides, Worf wasn't the one in the wrong either time his family was dishonored.
Why discount Kurn but listen to Worf? Of the two men, Kurn has practical knowledge of life and society in the empire, while Worf's is only theoretical and has an idealized view of Klingon lifestyles.
It occurs to me that the Council may well have religious power as well as social and political power. So discommendation is thorough, extending to the afterlife.
StoVoKor is all about honor at the time you die. Honor is all about the perception of others. Thus, if one was discommended, that would be a dishonor, just or not, and it would definitely affect the afterlife as far as Klingons are concerned.
However, one can regain honor. Kurn was just being lame, seeking literally the path of least resistance to regaining some bit of honor.
Do our court systems have power over God? Whatever the Klingon High Council may have thought of Worf, it was their actions that were dishonorable, not his. Honor is not something to be bestowed or awarded as a matter of convenience. Real honor is gained by living a life of service, dedication, and compassion. To say that Worf did none of these things because the blowhards on the Council said so devalues the concept of Klingon honor.
What does real life have to do with Klingons, Sran? Klingon honor isn't what humans think it is, despite Worf's domestication. If the Council says you're barred from Sto Vo Kor, well, then you're barred! What's a Klingon to do about it? Become an atheist, I suppose. Or a theist, maybe, by adopting the belief that the Klingon gods aren't dead, and therefore have the real final say on your disposition after death.
That wasn't my point. And for what it's worth, Klingon honor apparently isn't what Klingons think it is, given that most of them seem to have absolutely no honor.
And most Christians aren't as Christian as they could be. Every society has an ideal to aspire to but which the majority of members fail to achieve. So most Klingons aren't perfect, so what? Why did you bring up the question of our court system's relationship with God? What does anything in real life have to do with fictional alien societies? Why can't the Klingon Chancellor also be Klingon Chief Justice and Klingon Pope? Just because they're all separate in our society, they must be separate in all societies?
My point is that beings in the physical world don't necessarily have power over the spiritual, whatever their station in life may be. Just because a priest kicks someone out of the church doesn't mean that person can't make peace with God and still find a way into Heaven. By the same token, just because a psychopath like Gowron says that Worf has no honor doesn't mean that Worf's existence is suddenly worthless. Whatever Gowron's political position, he doesn't have real power over the Klingon afterlife.
Remember, Klingons killed their gods, so the only authorities over the afterlife are the Klingon leaders. We don't know if they have a Pope, so the Council very well may have the final say on who is qualified to enter Sto Vo Kor.
That's conjecture, as it's never shown on screen, and the only person who utters the line was himself not present for those events.
Conjecture?? What? Do you expect the Klingon mythology to be depicted onscreen? It's fiction within fiction!
From the DS9 epsiode "Homefront", where Worf and Kira are discussing their respective beliefs -
Klingon mythology says they had gods, and then killed them all off. Who will be the spiritual authority of Sto Vo Kor, then, if not the gods, since they're dead? Presumably the Council!
If you're a Klingon warrior, and believe in Sto Vo Kor, then presumably you'll listen to the authorities about what it takes to be granted entrance to Sto Vo Kor. Who but the Council would be the leading authority on the afterlife?
Let me put it this way: not everyone who practices a faith agrees with every aspect of said faith. If Worf really believed he was condemned to an existence without honor, it's hard to believe he would have risked Gowron's ire because he believed he was right, regardless of Gowron's perceived authority.
I'm Methodist and attend church regularly. That doesn't mean I'm going to do everything my minister tells me to do, nor does it mean that he holds the key to my getting into Heaven. I have my own sense of what's right and wrong that means more to me than the words of a religious authority.
And you have a very human take on spirituality, Sran, that Klingons wouldn't necessarily share. They're supposed to be aliens, not just humans with bumpy foreheads.
As you said, Klingons are fictional characters. That being the case, none of us know what a real Klingon would say about his spiritual beliefs. I have only my human experience with which to understand the perspective that a character in a fictional would have about the possibility of reaching the afterlife.
One could go by what's in the script, but scripts are ultimately written by human authors depicting their own views of religion and spirituality, be it Klingon, Romulan, Bajoran, or otherwise.
Look at Barge of Death.... Ok, so this post is about Worf, but Torres is still Klingon...
It says there the stuff she has to do to get her mother into Sto Vo Kor
^That was a dream sequence, so it's debatable how much of that really applies to Klingon mythology.
O'brien says that worf told him that dax won't get into sto vo kor because she didn't eat the heart of the enemy. If worf believes that is a requirement, AND it applied to kor, then it's evidence enough to be a requirement for me.
It's just weird to picture Worf eating the heart of some slain romulan (or whatever species), and i don't think he's ever done it.
The way O'Brien words it, it's not a certainty that you have to eat the heart of an enemy. It sounds that way, but a case could very easily be made for it being just one option.
Besides, Klingon beliefs vary wildly...it's almost as though they make them up as they go, sometimes forgetting old ones.
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