Would this make Nemsis' ending more satisfying.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by ConRefit79, May 10, 2013.

  1. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not usually one to pick the movies apart. I try to see them for what they are, each given its own context, but ...

    If Shinzon had been Picard's illegitimate son, the "if you had lived my life" crap might have made more sense. To me, "You abandoned us!" plays better than "I was supposed to be you!" Still a little Khan-ish, but it could work.

    Substitute an incurable genetic disorder for the cloning malfunction or whatever that was and let it play into the rage and derangement. "YOU DID THIS TO ME!"

    Lose the whole B4 nonsense. It had already been done to death with Lore.

    A different B plot--any B plot--would have been better. How about preventing the Remans from taking over Romulus after killing off the Senate?
     
  2. Gaith

    Gaith Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I saw a fan edit a few years back that completely removed B4. The movie was indeed improved, and was over faster to boot, but I was still left with a "blah" feeling at its conclusion.


    :bolian: Silva is just as incomprehensible and lazily written as Shinzon!
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think they film should have been in reversed order. Let it begin with the Enterprise in drydock, and end with Riker's and Troi's wedding.
     
  4. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Instead of Shinzon trying to destroy Earth, he should have tried to destroy Romulus, after all that's who he was supposed to have hated. Then Picard would be risking his ship on behalf of a traditional enemy who had stolen his DNA to create the very man who was in a position to destroy them. It could close with the implication that a new era in Federation/Romulan relations was at hand.
     
  5. wingsabre

    wingsabre Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Honestly what would have made the movie better would be a different villain. Shinzon was poorly contrived. It took too much explaining to make sense, and the age difference was poorly explained too. The whole thing was more of a distraction than a central plot.

    I think it would have been better if Sela were the main villain. They don't even have to go back and rehash the past episode in great detail. Just have it so that she lost all power and was imprisoned for the failed attempted invasion of Vulcan, and blames Picard and Data. We could also add Spock too, but whatever. What made TWoK's plot so accessible was it was basically a revenge plot.

    Data's survival would not really change or benefit the overall plot which was horrible.
     
  6. Nociod

    Nociod Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Been so long since I've seen the movie, but I remember not liking the sand-buggy scene, so I would like to have seen that gone.

    The B4 plot should also have been scrapped. If they absolutely had to have a "data clone" as well, then they could have had the Tal Shiar steal Lore's parts, and assembled him, formatting his hard drive. Data could be captured during an away team mission, and they could replace him with Lore.

    Obviously, this would put the movie in a whole another direction. The problem is that the story we got wasn't any good, and doesnt really make any sense.
     
  7. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    I used to think B4 could have been a bad attempt by the Romulans to duplicate Data. But like Shinzon, they did a poor job of it.

    BTW, is Shinzon just a made up name or was it derived from elsewhere?
     
  8. judgeroy

    judgeroy Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I lurk around here a lot and don't normally post as most of my thoughts have already been said, several times usually. However, I have to barge in here. I watched this movie on opening day, and frankly, I enjoyed to movie, until the end. To answer to OP's question, for me, YES sacrificing Picard would have saved the movie for me. It left me with a such a bad taste that I can't watch this movie to this day. Plus, It has been said that part of Data's make up is hydraulic, sorry folks, but hydraulics won't last in a vaccum any better than humans.
     
  9. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles Happy Little Tree Premium Member

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    The biggest failure in their attempt to copy TWOK is that while they try to go for the same emotional gut-punch by killing a beloved character, it lacks the potential for finality that TWOK had in 1982. Yeah, we all know how it turned out two years later, but at the time there was no guarantee Nimoy would come back. Nick Meyer's initial cut of the film had no reassuring ending shot of the torpedo casket safe on Genesis; that was added by Harve Bennett in post-production.

    Fast-forward to 2002, and we have Data's "out" practically gift-wrapped for us from the moment they find him in pieces on the planet. If there was a remote chance that NEM wouldn't suck, and it would make enough money, and Paramount would greenlight another one, Berman wanted a way to get Data back without trying too hard.

    But Javier Bardem is so magnetic in his portrayal that you sort of forgive the mess, at least while you're watching it. Sadly, couldn't say the same for Tom Hardy, at least not in this role.

    This. A gaping flaw in the film's logic that a first-grader should have spotted, to say nothing of the series' longtime producer, one of its stars, and its Academy Award-nominated screenwriter. Pathetic.

    Not this. Sorry, but Denise Crosby can't act her way out of a wet paper bag, and expecting the weight of the movie to at least partially rest on her shoulders is foolhardy.
     
  10. Xavier_Storma

    Xavier_Storma Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That was Shinzon's problem. He did not only want to execute revenge on the Romulans, but on everyone because he felt abandoned. Especially on Picard. His megalomania was eventually his downfall.

    I think Hardy did a great job.
     
  11. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles Happy Little Tree Premium Member

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    How did Picard abandon him, other than refusing to sacrifice himself by giving all his blood so Shinzon wouldn't die of Writer's Technobabble Syndrome or whatever was ailing him?
     
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But that's not really true. He may have felt abandoned, but that was certainly not his motivation for attacking Earth. The only reason why he eventually decided to attack Earth was because the renegade Romulans kept pressuring him to. Romulans, I might add, that he really had no obligation to. Yes, they helped him kill the Senate and take over the planet, but once that was accomplished, Shinzon could have just offed them too. But instead he let them boss him around, even though he was in charge! Just one of many things fundamentally wrong with this film.
     
  13. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    Then why did some of them try to help Picard stop him?
     
  14. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Shinzon wanting to destroy Earth didn't make much sense to me either. Its a planet he's never been to and done nothing to him, or was he going to threaten to kill everyone on the planet unless Picard handed himself over to Shinzon?

    His real gripe was with Romulous, but all he did there was kill the senators and seize control, what about the rest of the population? I find it hard to believe the Romulan people in general and the vast majority of the military would just accept it without any kind of opposition!

    I like Tom Hardy, but I'd have preferred to see James Marsters in the role--but even better would have been Patrick Stewart with some X-Men 3 CGI to make him look younger :)
     
  15. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A scarred version of Patrick Stewart would have been it.

    Shinzon was supposed to replace him. So let him be the same age. But since things went wrong and he fought in the Dominion war, let him have one half of his face burned, one arm crippled or something like that.

    Shinzon should have the genetically programmed drive to overthrow the Federation and to follow the orders of his programmers, no matter how irrational it might seem at the time. And throughout the film we see him fight against himself because of that. Picard recognizes this and tries to appeal to his human side. But when his good side wins the battle, it's already too late for him and he gets killed.

    Ditch the B4 story, because two clone stories is too much.

    The film should have delved into the clone infiltrator story instead. Let there be an entire group of Starfleet officials who actually got replaced and start to attack the Enterprise. Let that be the moment where Shinzon overcomes his programming and does the RIGHT thing by trying to save Picard, getting killed in the process.


    It would basically be a combination of the Picard/Shinzon and Data/B4 plots. Shinzon's internal battle, B4's infiltration, and Data's scrifice.
     
  16. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you watch the movie, you'll see that they realized that allying with Shinzon was a mistake, because they think he wants to destroy Earth, not just to attack it. Which of course makes no sense, because attacking Earth and destroying Earth kinda go hand in hand. Reason #237 as to why the movie is flawed.
     
  17. Frontier

    Frontier Vice Admiral Admiral

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    IMHO, you can't fix a fundamentally flawed film just by changing the ending.

    Nemesis was a good idea on paper; but a poor film once written and made.

    I blame Stuart Baird for a lot of the bad, but everyone involved in the creative aspects must be held to task for it as well.
     
  18. ConRefit79

    ConRefit79 Captain Captain

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    I never said it would fix everything. But at least it would be unexpected and pretty much permanent.
     
  19. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In this particular case I couldn't equate "unexpected" with "good". Data makes his way to the Scimitar to save Picard only to have Picard force(?) Data to save himself, right after they've found a "clone" of Data that contains Data's memories? Seems like a waste of material.
     
  20. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, that bothered me as well.

    Exactly. Hardy is very good but Stewart _is_ Picard, so it would have made the "reveal" a lot more poignant. As it stands they have to tell you it's a clone, but the crew act all shocked.