Would Nemesis Have Fared Better?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by austen_pierce, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I never got around to seeing it in the theater. It's the only trek film since TUC I didn't see on the big screen. I eventually got around to seeing it on DVD. It nearly bored me to death and I haven't watched it since. Even Data's death had absolutely no emotional impact on me.
     
  2. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I recently watched it for the first time since I saw it in theaters. Surprisingly, I found it significantly better than I did the first time. Which is to say, I still didn't think it was very good.

    The thing that stood out the most was how low-budget it felt. And not low-budget in a TFF way, because at least TFF had the scope and grandeur of a feature film. Everything in NEM was claustrophobic and cramped.

    The sets all felt like TV sets. The Romulan senate, for example, was not the ominously enormous parliament one would expect of an alien planet but a couple dozen chairs on choir risers.

    It was obvious all the Enterprise sets had been made smaller from what they had been in the previous two films.

    The big complaint about GEN and INS has always been the plots felt like TV episodes, but NEM looked the part, which is far more damning.
     
  3. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think you're close. I think Nemesis was allowed to fail, not to get rid of TNG, per se, but to get Berman out of the films. The studio couldn't get rid of Berman -- he had a contract -- but they didn't have to greenlight the films he had in development. Eventually, the clock ran out on Berman's contract, and shortly thereafter Paramount made the deal with Bad Robot.
     
  4. Romulan_spy

    Romulan_spy Commodore Commodore

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    I too was also very disappointed in how small the Romulan senate was in Nemesis. It made the movie feel the opposite of epic.
     
  5. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    None of that would have bothered me had we gotten a decent story. That it took them four years to come up with "Picard has an evil twin" is mind-boggling. But wait, we need a b-story. Okay how about... Data has a twin, too! Christ...
     
  6. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    It felt very straight to DVD or TV-movie in quality, for me. The only two parts I like in the movie is just before the main battle when the Enterprise crew is breaking out sidearms and getting the ship ready for the fight--felt like the "run out the guns" sequence from TWOK; The battle after the Romulans showed up, which was visually impressive even though the bits with the actors were pretty bad.

    One thing that pissed me right off with the movie is the Troi Psychic rape scene. How many more times were they going to go that route with her? First the series, now the movie, couldn't they have cooked up some other threat for her?
     
  7. Pondwater

    Pondwater Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nope. It got beat out by a Jennifer Lopez movie.:wtf:
     
  8. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Yes, that was painful, but when Troi guides Worf's hand for the 'empathic' Quantum torpedo lock, THAT worked. In fact that was one of the best TNG movie moments.
     
  9. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think if anything, LOTR fans cross over with Star Trek fans. The idea that someone would say "Gee, I will only see either a Star Trek Movie OR a LOTR movie," doesn't hold water. Fans of both will see both, especially if they are good movies.

    Bottom line: Nemesis failed because it wasn't that good a movie. Once word of mouth got out, it killed it. Not to mention, the script was leaked a few months before it was released and a lot of fans were so upset by what they read, they stayed home.

    Star Trek at that time was a niche market. They should have catered to long time fans, especially if the intent was that it was to be the last TNG film, and focused on the writing. Instead, it tried to be something for everyone, which pleased no one.
     
  10. Silanda

    Silanda Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I don't think it would have helped much on its own. Nemesis wasn't great and it followed Insurrection, the most boring Trek film of them all. When you combine that with the general perception that Trek had gone stale, even among long time some fans (e.g. myself), it wasn't a recipe for success.
     
  11. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I didn't hate Nemesis, but I've always thought it would have been so much better and more dramatic (and more believable) if Patrick Stewart played Shinzon. Was that ever considered?
     
  12. Lance

    Lance Commodore Commodore

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    ^ It was, apparently. I don't know why they didn't run with it. Maybe they thought having two Brent Spiners and two Patrick Stewarts running around on screen would have been too much?
     
  13. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    ^ on the 2009 release of Nemesis dvd and bluray, Brent Spiner talks about it. He says that Berman was against having everyone play 2 of themselves. This was when Nemesis was originally to be a Mirror Universe flick. Brent goes on to say something to the extent of they had done a lot of it before (DS9) and Rick really didn't understand it.

    Even Berman hated the Mirror episodes of DS9! Brilliant.
     
  14. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I am still of the opinion that had rather than go with a clone of Picard, Shinzon could have also just been a renegade Romulan, with Sela as an ally, it would have been a lot better.
     
  15. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    ^ You know Denise Crosby tried to get a part in the movie and Rick Berman told her there was no place where they could fit her in? Like wth man. She could've easily taken the bulk of Donatra's role. It could've been Sela and Donatra who rallied the Romulans to help the Enterprise fight Shinzon. Idk, if NEM had a bigger budget maybe it would've been better. $50 million for the film's budget and another $10 million for advertising. I think with a $100 million dollar budget we could've got a grander film. Which would include more shots of Romulus, a bigger cast, finer special effects and the big starship battle at the end with the two Romulans ships and Starfleet's Battle Group Omega vs the Scimitar. That would've been cool.
     
  16. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    The first "how could Nemesis have been better" thread I remember appeared not long after the film.

    I had suggested instead of cloning Picard they cloned Kirk from his corpse on Veridian III. Then have Spock kidnapped while he was on Romulus, brain washed and thus becoming the viceroy. And no B4. So basically the film becomes Picard/Data vs. Evil Kirk/Spock.

    Yeah, it's silly (I was 10 years younger.), but really not anymore stupid than the actual plot. Plus, it had that extra element of awesome going for it.

    That doesn't really match with her character.
     
  17. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd much rather have watched that.
     
  18. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nemesis should have re-introduced Lore and Tom Riker, and a clone of Picard at his age.

    TRIPLE TWINS!

    Also flashbacks to Tasha Yar and then future scenes with Sela.

    QUADRUPEL THE FUN!

    In hindsight, Nemesis reminds me of this

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G6owNcUFDA[/yt]
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nemesis probably would have gotten better boxoffice if it had Jennifer Lopez in it.

    Maybe in the Shinzon role, the actor they did hire didn't look all that much like Picard either.

    :)
     
  20. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah they definitely could have fit Denise Crosby in there. Even if they kept Donatra...they could have been rivals, that were forced to work together, and Picard, to fight Shinzon. In fact, it would have made the then seemingly hopeful beginnings of a Federation-Romulan thaw in relations, dare I say a treaty or alliance, mean that much more if someone like Sela and Picard could work together.


    Yeah, if you are going to have someone play a clone of someone else, they need to have some kind of resemblance other than being bald!

    They should have used Patrick Stewart to play Shinzon for sure. The guy looks pretty much like he did even back in the 1970s (IE other than the fake hair, he looks the same as when he was in I, Claudius, to me). For Nemesis, they could have CGI-smoothed his face some in the beginning of the movie, and aged him up as he got sicker.