Would Nemesis have been received better if.....

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by los2188, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. los2188

    los2188 Commander Red Shirt

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    Would Nemesis have been better received if it had been released after First Contact, instead of after Insurrection? I had always believed to a degree that Nemesis suffered after having been the next movie after Insurrection. I can certainly say that Insurrection left a bad taste in my mouth after seeing it, and in some ways my expectations of Nemesis were somewhat lower after having seen Insurrection....what do you think?
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nemesis would've been better received if it had been a better movie.
     
  3. USS Intrepid

    USS Intrepid Commodore Commodore

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    The main problem I see with Nemesis is that the script needed a lot more work, and the director was so far up his own ass he didn't realise he wasn't the great visionary he thought he was.

    Nemesis really could have been a great movie, but it just didn't hit the marks it needed too. Most of the problems could have been fixed at the script stage, and it's a real pity they didn't see the problems at the time.

    Now that said, I don't think it's the train wreck many people do. And I still maintain that if you went back to all the raw footage you could cut together a much better movie than we got.

    That said, it's still a bit of a guilty pleasure movie for me. I was pretty disappointed with it when I saw it, but for all it's flaws, I don't mind it too much these days.
     
  4. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agree. :vulcan:
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A guy who can't even be bothered to remember the actors names, can't be expected to direct a good movie.

    But the director can't get all the blame, the script was fundamentally flawed on so many levels.

    The release order really wouldn't make a difference if these stayed the same. If anything Nemesis should have seemed stronger coming off a weaker movie like Insurrection.
     
  6. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    One could also say the same thing about Rick Berman, who I think shares a good chunk of the blame for TNG's lackluster big screen outings.
     
  7. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's just not a good movie. INS is a better movie, for all its flaws. But I suppose a bad movie (NEM) following a good one (FC) might have been survivable for the series (like TFF following TVH - they were able to get back on track with TUC, as there was still some goodwill for Star Trek).

    On the other hand, a bad movie following a lacklustre one just seems to have been the kiss of death for the series, at least for the TNG incarnation of it.
     
  8. Drago-Kazov

    Drago-Kazov Fleet Captain

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    The talent was there, the problem was the execution.
     
  9. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So true :)

    The idea had merit, but it was seriously flawed.

    I'm sure I heard/read somewhere that he wasn't even that familiar with TNG (one example was that he thought Geordi was an alien).

    I always stop the movie after the toast to Data and you see the ship in dry-dock. That way Data remains dead and honoured for his selfless sacrifice.
     
  10. newtontomato539

    newtontomato539 Commander Red Shirt

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    The TNG movies blew "Odds suck. Evens better." nonsense out of the water. Nemesis sucked. They all sucked. Geez, what year is this!?
     
  11. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But if we're to say First Contact was a good outing, as most people here seem to, then doesn't Berman also deserve credit for that? Harve Bennett produced Wrath of Khan, but he also produced The Final Frontier. Your writer and your director make a huge difference, and while Berman was ultimately responsible for the franchise, Nemesis really most needed was a script overhaul and a different director.
     
  12. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think it was ever true anyway. Perhaps you could say "evens are better than odds," but certainly not that the odds are awful. I think TMP and TFF were both decent, but flawed, films. TSFS was good, but overshadowed by what came before and after it. Generations was a decent effort, as was Insurrection. Really, none of the odd numbered films are outright awful.
     
  13. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So all discussions and topics on all the series (the last of which ended seven years ago) should be shut down and locked?

    It's all meant as a bit of fun.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You fed the troll! They're like tribbles! Feed it one tiny morsel and one becomes ten, ten become a hundred! Madness! :lol:
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think the script needed a lot more work. I think the script should have been tossed out entirely. Everyone went into this movie believing it was the last story to be told of the next generation crew. Here's what I did not want to see in a final journey.

    - They wanted a Wrath of Khan like movie with a dark villain whom Picard has some connection with. Didn't we already have that with First Contact?

    - Picard/Data centered story. While Picard and Data certainly took he center stage in the previous movies, there was some attempt at making the other characters have a relevant role in the story. Nemesis didn't bother trying.

    - Too much to the point and nothing more. The bad guy is the villain and we must stop him. That's basically it. There isn't much of anything going on for the story make us care for what's at stake.

    - Random scenes that add nothing. Dune Buggy is ok I guess, but a Dune Buggy chase with guns and explosions that is never brought up again is sheer story telling incompetence. We could have cut right back to the Enterprise when B4 first responds to Data after picking up his head and there wouldn't be a sense of something missing from the audience.

    - Ignoring major character points. Shinzon always goes on and on about how he and Picard are so alike and how Picard is capable of doing all the things he's done. Picard is told by Data that events in ones life shape the person you are. So, what event do we know about that helped shape Picard's life when he was that young? Losing his heart. Shinzon still has his real heart. When Picard tries to reason with him once more, he not only doesn't bring up his artificial heart, but says "you're heart is the same as mine". They had the perfect opportunity to let Picard not only use something from the series, but also give a tangible reason why Picard is who he is as a result of bring brought up differently than Shinzon. He could have told Shinzon that he still has his real heart and that he can still choose a path that won't take all of that away.

    - Make it accessible to new comers. This is a big one. How is it that a film which is focused on the last voyages of the TNG crew is being made as a film that is accessible to new comers? This is the end of a near 15 year journey, and they're trying to make it like none of those 15 years ever mattered. That is wrong.

    The script shouldn't have been fixed. It should have been abandoned.
     
  16. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Commodore Commodore

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    Nemesis would have been a better movie if the cut scenes hadn't been cut.

    Nemesis would have been a better movie B4 had been Lore. Giving Data's consciousness to Lore would have left the possibility to make him the big villain of the next movie, you know ... Lore's personality somehow taking over and so on. And then it could have been him instead of Nero who went into the past, after he blew up Romulus of course!

    Nemesis would have been a better movie if Shinzon had been Sela or Tom Riker or anyone else, the whole Picard clone idea didn't work for me.

    Nemesis would have been a better movie if Jonathan Frakes had directed it.

    Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had more Romulans.

    Nemesis would have been a better movie if it had old Romulan Warbirds instead of Valdore Class ships.
     
  17. CoveTom

    CoveTom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Agreed on most counts. The cut scenes definitely needed to be included. They were most of the character moments of the film. We could have done without a few of the action sequences -- can anyone say "dune buggy"? -- in order to get those character moments in. They were important, and they would greatly enhance the film.

    I also agree Jonathan Frakes would have made a much better movie than Stuart Baird. He would have certainly brought much more of a respect for Star Trek and a desire to make something other than just a mindless action film.

    I agree that the Romulans should have played a more prominent role. This was build as the big movie in which the Romulans were finally going to be the adversaries, and then it ended up being about a human.

    But I don't agree about including Sela, Tom Riker, or even Lore. I think there's probably too much backstory in there for a feature film. Lore maybe. You could have a line of dialog about how Lore is the prototype for Data that went horribly wrong. But Sela? There's no way to explain who she is, and why we care, in a line or two. And we don't need time in the movie devoted to explaining the backstory of Tasha Yar, "Yesterday's Enterprise," "Redemption," and "Unification".

    Personally, I think the clone of Picard idea could have worked. But it should have been Patrick Stewart playing both characters. He is a good enough actor to pull it off without it being corny. And we didn't need a Data story where he also happens to be dealing with a clone. Not every movie needed a Data b-story. Really. Data could still play an important role, and even sacrifice himself in the end, without having to have his own storyline.

    My only other comment is that they should find something for the ensemble to do. Unlike TOS, which is often cited as an ensemble show but really wasn't, TNG was a true ensemble show. The first three TNG movies at least made a perfunctory attempt to give the other characters besides Picard and Data something to do, and coincidentally the film that is most respected of the TNG era, First Contact, is also the one in which the ensemble had the most substantive roles. Picard can still be front and center, but there's no reason that the other characters need to be background set pieces.
     
  18. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Commodore Commodore

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    You're right about Sela, it would probably too complicated to explain her existence within the movie. I also agree that Patrick Stewart playing Shinzon might have saved the whole clone plot. But it would still be an odd story, that I would rather drop alltogether. I think that Lore would have been the better (and obvious) choice for the a-story, with Romulan politics as a b-story ... Shinzon as the new Romulan (not Reman) praetor, and not as Picard's clone.
     
  19. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Two roles for Patrick Stewart and for Brent Spiner? I don't know. I've always been critical of the fact that Hardy never convinced (me anyway) as a clone of Stewart. But not even William Shatner dared give himself double roles in a Trek movie...
     
  20. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nemesis. Has one truly great Trek scene: Picard waiting for the Scimitar/ship decloaking. Other than that script and directing about on par with FC and INS. But I'm not that big a fan of the movies anyway. They all have flaws, some bigger than others.