Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by The Overlord, Nov 25, 2011.

  1. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    Would Nemesis had been better without the Remans, with a story that just a straight up conflict between the Federation and Romulan Empire? Besides the latest Star Trek movie, there has never been a Star Trek movie that featured the Romulans as the villains. Nemesis toyed with that but instead introduces the Remans, aliens never seen before or since this movie, as the villains.

    It seems like this movie would have had a tighter script if Shinzon wasn't a Picard clone, but was an aggressive Romulan commander who wanted war with the Federation. Shinzon launched a military coup to gain control of the Romulan empire, with the Romulan military building the Scimitar in secret, without the Senate's knowledge. As the Praetor, Shinzon could still pretend to be interested in peace as a prelude to war.

    This seems less convoluted then the story we got in Nemesis. It also builds upon the tension we saw between the Romulans and the Federation in TNG.
     
  2. Maxillius

    Maxillius Commander Red Shirt

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    Nemesis wasn't bad. It only failed because it was released when Lord of the Rings: Return of the King and The Matrix: Revelations were both in theaters.
     
  3. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    I disagree, I thought it was pretty bad and the way the script was written made no sense.
     
  4. WarsTrek1993

    WarsTrek1993 Captain Captain

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    Nemesis definitely wasn't without flaws, but it had its moments.
    I felt the Remans were interesting (except for the godawful makeup they used.) If anything, it would've been better to explore them more. (And for that matter, explore Shinzon alittle more)
     
  5. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    then why did it lose to "Maid in Manhattan" when it opened up? "Nemesis" is The only Trek movie not to open at no.1 LOTR:TTT wasn't even out yet.
     
  6. WarsTrek1993

    WarsTrek1993 Captain Captain

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    Just my personal opinion. lol.
     
  7. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    that's the problem with your idea, it's simplistic.

    Just for that reason, Maid in Manhattan was excellent, well made, good story.

    Star Trek:Nemesis and Maid in Manhattan cost about the same amount. Nemesis was badly reviewed and made 67 million, Maid received wonderful reviews and starred Jenifer Lopez at the height of her movie popularity, her movie made 155 million.

    Nemesis just couldn't compete after the word of mouth got out.

    :)
     
  8. The Overlord

    The Overlord Captain Captain

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    What's wrong with keeping it simple and straight forward. I somewhat believe in this principal:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
     
  9. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't really comparing "Nemesis" to "Maid," just pointing out that if LOTR: TTT and other big sci-fi/fantasy blockbuster competition was behind "Nemesis'" box office failure, then the fact that it couldn't even beat out a Lopez romantic comedy before those other movies were out yet kind of blows a hole in that argument.
     
  10. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Commodore Commodore

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    i know i was saving up for a big LOTR night (going out to the midnight show, and eating before/afterwards).

    I didn't want to get movied out.

    And LotR was definitely grander & more anticipated than Nemesis.

    And when i heard the reviews -- definitely killed my excitement.
     
  11. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed Captain Captain

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    I thought Shinzon was an interesting concept, and with more development and a better motivation he could have been a terrific villain. With all that said, I like your idea of putting the focus on the Romulans and eliminating the Remans from the movie entirely. The Romulans were my favorite villains in TNG, and I think a conflict between them and the Federation could have made for a far more interesting movie than what we actually got.
    I would agree with WarsTrek1993 that Nemesis did have its moments, but IMO its many flaws overshadowed a lot of its good moments. I don't think Nemesis is nearly as bad as the critics and most Trek fans claim, but regardless it could have been much, much better.
    Going back to how it could have been different, I like your idea of a military coup with an aggressive Romulan taking over Romulus and trying to wage war with the Federation. At the same time, I somewhat agree with T'Girl that the story would need a lot of fleshing out so that it didn't just turn into an action movie with the Federation vs. the Romulus. I'm sure that's what you intended, though, so cool idea.
     
  12. BriGuy

    BriGuy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know I was hoping for a Romulan movie. I was jazzed that they'd finally be used as the adversary in a movie, only to have those hopes dashed.

    They didn't need to invent the Remans. There's enough established already.
     
  13. Ln X

    Ln X Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nemesis was good, but I think the whole problem was Star Trek oversaturation. I always think of 1990 to 1999 as the golden age of Star Trek, nearly all of my favorite episodes are in that time period. But because everyone (Trekkies) had seen so much Star Trek the bar had to be raised to really impress us, but since it was not raised there was disappointment.

    I wasn't disappointed, its a good movie to watch, but because of oversaturation Nemisis didn't stand a chance against the Matrix Reloaded, and Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. LOTR trilogy are the most amazing films of this century, nothing can compare to their epicness. So what chance did Star Trek Nemisis have?

    Another problem was that the TNG crew weren't really cut out for action movies. The DS9 crew could have been up to the job, but by then it was to late. (sighs)
     
  14. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Certainly the Tal Shiar could have built the Scimitar in secret. It wouldn't have been the first time the intelligence agency of some race did that.

    Would've been easier to believe than the "subjugated race" doing it.
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I thought the Remans were really cool. Mutant, vampiric Vulcanoids? Excellent.
     
  16. Dr. Crusher

    Dr. Crusher Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't think "Nemesis" was terrible, but I think there was a lot about it that made it a good, rather than a great, Trek film. The Remans weren't a bad idea, but since it was advertised to be the last TNG film, it may have been served better by focusing on adversaries that were more familiar. In addition, even those who may have gone to see the film that weren't huge TNG fans would have known at least something about the Romulans.
     
  17. JWD75

    JWD75 Commander Red Shirt

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    I didn't like the Remans and i think that the movie would have been better off without them. On top of everything their make-up looked ridiculous.

    I was really excited for this movie when I heard the early reports about it. I was especially happy when I heard that John Logan was writing it because Gladiator is one of my favorite movies. My excitement quickly vanished when I saw the trailer. I've never seen a worse trailer in my life - it made the movie seem lifeless, tired and bland. I had almost no interest in seeing the movie after seeing the trailer. I would bet good money that the trailer cost Nemesis a good part of its potential audience and is one of the factors - and there are many - for why the movie failed so miserably.
     
  18. WarsTrek1993

    WarsTrek1993 Captain Captain

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    At least the movie doesn't have any comments about Androids' bottoms....
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or androids questioning Klingons on the firmness of their boobs.
     
  20. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    Berman Trek was becoming stagnant. Your casual viewer wouldn't know Berman from a hole in the wall, yes. But they sure as hell knew that other sic-fi and fantasy fare such as LOTR and The Matrix were passing Trek by in style as well as substance. NEM looked old. NEM looked like it was made on the cheap. NEM's story was in no way innovative.

    That's why it failed.