Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Captrek, Jul 16, 2009.
"It's not over till the fanged lady sings! Wait, all of them are fanged..."
It is repeatedly stated by Sisko, quite correctly, that the Klingons do not have any proof that the Dominion is behind the coup. However, proof or no proof, the Klingon theory is very plausible, given the information available at the time. Even if you think it is probably not true, even if you figure the probability of Dominion involvement in the coup is just 20-30% (and it can’t reasonably be projected much lower), that’s not a chance the Federation or the Klingon Empire can afford to take, is it? Dominion control of Cardassia would be a disaster for the Alpha Quadrant. It would give them a huge advantage in the war that everybody knows is inevitable.
Given the Klingons’ sincere belief that the Dominion was much more likely than not involved with the coup, Sisko’s (and to a lesser extent, the Federation Council’s) demands that the Klingon sit back and do nothing is completely unreasonable. Look at it from the Klingons’ point of view. Could you possibly agree to those demands? They finally stopped only after the Federation made it clear that they would intervene militarily, which meant the Klingons had practically no hope of successfully conquering and holding onto Cardassia, and it would be foolish to sacrifice the Klingon military in a futile operation. But as long as you believe that the Dominion is involved in Cardassia and that you have a chance to do something about it, you have to try, despite Federation protests.
Nasat, I assume those spoiler tags were intended specifically for my sake. Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
So it's OK for any military power to invade another state only on the grounds of a suspicion against its legal government? That logic would have allowed any power in the quadrant to wage war on just about any state they decide, with the excuse that they suspect there is a Dominion infiltration in the government, without the need to provide any proof. What if the Romulan Empire had decided to attack the Klingon Empire, stating that they suspected with good reason that Klingon policies and their attack on Cardassia were the result of Changelings infiltrating Klingon leadership? Would that have been legitimate, too?
The ironic thing is that the invasion of Cardassian space WAS the result of Changelings infiltrating Klingon leadership or at least it's military leadership.
And it was due to that same Dominion-influenced invasion that the Cardassians ended up joining the Dominion anyways. So the Klingons ended up causing what they hoped to avert.
Did anyone watch this episode? The klingons invading Cardassia because of their stated reason was not why they invaded...they invaded because they wanted to go back to the old ways, and this gave them the excuse..The old klingon dude, when he got drunk, told Worf this. And later, while telling Sisko, worf agrees..
Going after supposed Changlings was just extra...bringing back Klingon pride was the main reason...Sisko was right for warning the cardassians...
I’m not talking about international law, I’m talking about survival. The Dominion presents an existential threat to both the Federation and the Klingon Empire. During the Civil War and World War II, the US government did a lot of things that would not necessarily be considered “OK” because the very survival of the nation was at stake.
Admittedly, the precedents set by such actions are not without their problems. After 9/11, George W. Bush frequently pointed to Civil War precedents and claimed that the War on Terror and the war in Iraq (which he started without good cause) gave him the right to do anything that Lincoln had done, as if there were no difference between the threat posed by the Civil War and Bush’s flimsy excuses. So you have to be careful about setting your standards, and be clear that just because something can be justified in extreme circumstances doesn’t mean it’s automatically justified in all circumstances.
Besides, I’m not advocating that the Federation actively participate in the invasion of Cardassia, merely that they stand aside. Just because the invasion may not be “OK” according to Federation standards of conduct doesn’t mean the Federation is compelled to intervene in a war between two other powers, especially when nonintervention would result in a victory for the Federation’s ally.
Come on, what obligation did the Federation have to defend Cardassia? There was no treaty between them. Does the Federation morally evaluate every war in the quadrant and intervene on behalf of the Good Guys against the Bad Guys? No. In most cases they don’t get involved. Why make an exception in this case?
No they didn’t. The Federation did.
Like I said, Sisko’s handling of the situation left the Federation, the Klingon Empire, and Cardassian space in the hands of three powers that hated each other. That fear of the other two would ultimately drive the weakest of the three into the hands of the Dominion is not surprising.
Had Sisko obeyed orders and stayed out of it, that space would have been controlled by two allied powers instead of three antagonistic powers, and there would have been no Cardassian government in a position to hand all that strategic space over to the Dominion.
Against orders? Why do the Admiralty and the CinC even exist if captains are free to ignore any orders they disagree with? (Of course, I’m OK with Sisko disobeying orders in the simulation in The Search. Like I said above, existential threats can justify actions that would ordinarily be unacceptable.)
Or Dukat would have still managed to negotiate with the Dominion to "liberate" Cardassia and force out the Klingons which would lead to the same inevitable war we got anyways.
Either way, the Dominion were in control of the situation. The Martok Changling would have seen to it that the invasion of Cardassia would aid the Dominion somehow.
Argh. I know this forum isn’t a spoiler free zone, but... at least Nasat spared me.
Is that a spoiler? It's been over 10 years...
If you visit an online forum on a show that has finished 10 years ago you take your chances that you'll be spoiled.
Tell me about it, I read complaints from people on a DC Comics message board over someone "spoiling" stuff about a story that came out 20 yeas ago.
I realize that. I just figured that those who had been paying attention would realize my situation and might use spoiler tags in this thread just to be nice to me. Nasat did it, and I thanked him and hoped others would pick up on that. That doesn’t mean anybody’s obligated to follow Nasat’s courteous example, and I hope I don’t sound like I’m complaining. Nobody has done anything wrong here, and no rules have been violated. But what’s wrong with going above and beyond like Nasat did?
Captrek, you could also use your same logic and apply it to Sisko's POV.
Sisko when listening to Gowron making claims of Changeling infiltration to conquer Cardassia, could not just be thinking about the consequences of his actions but also all the consequences of his inactions. Think about it. Given what he had just been told by Gowron, can Sisko really by sure at that point that the Klingon empire itself had not been infiltrated at the highest levels? Perhaps Gowron himself was a changeling? Is it unreasonable for Sisko to think so, given the fact that Gowron should know how the UFP would react should he declare war on Cardassia? And what if it turns out it is true (and it did later on, not Gowron but Martok)? Would it really been in the interest of the Federation to have the Cardassian empire conquered by the Klingons who would be under the influence of a changeling? Both empires would thus be under Dominion influence. And do you not think that an already war-hungry Klingon people, their fires fueled by victory and a belligerent power-hungry Klingon leader like Gowron (who could be a changeling) would not turn around and declare themselves the most powerful force in the Alpha quadrant and still break the Khitomer accords?
Given the alternatives, Sisko did not have much choice. The changelings played their moves well and backed the UFP and the Alpha quadrant into choosing the lesser of two evils, and Sisko did do what was right given the information he had then.
Warning the Cardassians through a 3rd party, in this case Garak, was the right thing to do. Rescuing the Detapa Council, by engaging in battle with Klingon ships was also right. The UFP's directive, and Starfleets orders were broken for the greater good. Trying to keep the Klingons, and Cardassians from fighting a bloody war was the best thing for the AQ at that time.
Had the Klingons catured the entire Cardassian Empire, keeping it under their control would have cost them a large portion of their fleet and huge amounts of man (Klingon) power and resources.
The Dominion could have then come through the wormhole in force, overwhelming DS9. With the wormhole secured (I don't think the Federation had upgraded their shield technology to block Dominion weapons at this point.) they could have brought through a huge fleet of ships. The Klingons would have been too spread out to react and gather enough ships to defend the Empire. The Klingons would be out of the War.
The Cardassian Empire, already in disarray after being conquered by the Klingons, would not be able to resist the Dominion forces. 2 AQ powers down.
The wormhole, now more tightly secured, would leave the the Dominion free to keep on bringing in ships. Sacrifice of Angels told us that a fleet large enough to defeat the combined Klingon/Federation fleets was coming through, that would suggest that the Dominion had more ships than the Klingons and Federation combined. The Federation would have been conquered. 3 AQ powers down. The Federation and Klingons make up 2 of the "Big Three" AQ powers.
Would the Romulans join the War on the Federation side? Doubtful, they would most likely try to seek a way to stay neutral, even if it meant becoming a satellite republic of the Dominion. Yes that is speculation, but with the 2 of the 3 strongest powers defeated, the Romulans would have little choice.
That's how I see it anyway.
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