World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by M'Sharak, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. urbandk

    urbandk Commodore Commodore

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    I hate being the reflexive defender of this movie, but I guess I will be once again.

    This Kirk is not the Kirk of the original series. He takes his cues much more from the Kirks of Star Trek II through VI. That Kirk wasn't the Kirk of the original series either.

    He certainly isn't mealy mouthed little Wesley either. He's lived a different life and events have shaped him differently.

    He's also 28. He's not a boy. He steps up in crisis. He acts provocative but turns that quality into a strength.

    I myself thought much more could be done with this new Kirk, but that's just it. He's got a new trail to blaze. The essence of the original character is there, but he's being interpreted by another actor.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    From a military standpoint he is a boy among men. Men who were trained to handle crisis situations. How is Spock the XO if he can't handle the big chair and is getting shown up by a third year cadet?

    These characters just seem screwy when compared to their TOS counter-parts.
     
  3. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One thing that Orci made clear long ago is that he gets that Kirk is an extremely intelligent man - a generalist who can keep up with Spock's (presumed to be) scientifically sophisticated analyses and reason out or intuit fairly abstract solutions to problems. Beyond that he's well-educated on a range of subjects. That separates him from characters like Han Solo, or James Bond - they may be reasonably bright as well in many regards, but their characterizations don't properly depend upon anything beyond skill in their areas of experience and essential cleverness (or "occasional cleverness and frequent gunfire" on Solo's part).
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    How well educated could he be if he's hanging out at Iowa bars getting drunk on wood grain alcohol?

    Maybe it'll make sense in the context of the movie. Here's hoping... :)
     
  5. urbandk

    urbandk Commodore Commodore

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    It's an XO, Pike, who recognizes that Kirk has a sort of genius and gives him the first officer duty. Kirk succeeded in analyzing a situation where the rest of the fleet's commanders failed. Kirk is sui generis. Spock has a different approach, but it was clear, even in TOS, that Spock's service was longer than Kirk's. Yet Kirk gets the command. He does here too, after demonstrating that Spock is incapable of being an effective commander because he is emotionally traumatized by the destruction of Vulcan. Kirk steps up.

    It's not a perfect system, sure, but they work hard to make it plausible in the context of the movie. I've suspended my disbelief for much more egregious transgressions of logic in TOS and elsewhere, I'm not going to stop giving Star Trek the benefit of the doubt now, especially when they have a kick ass new movie out.
     
  6. urbandk

    urbandk Commodore Commodore

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    He wasn't before the academy. He was kinda a loser. But the movie skips three years later... so perhaps he got some good education at the academy.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which heads back to the whole Jim Kirk is the new Wesley Crusher. All of these experienced commanders can't come up with a plan of action yet third year cadet Jim Kirk can? Guess the guy who plays Robau was wrong about other officers not being made to look stupid to make Kirk look good.
     
  8. urbandk

    urbandk Commodore Commodore

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    The only guy who looks stupid to make Kirk look good is Spock, but he's got problems of his own at that moment and redeems himself. the failure of the other commanders to assess the situation is not egregious; it was simply an inspired connection of events that allowed Kirk to see the incident at Vulcan for what it was.

    If this issue is going to be a major hang up for you, you will indeed be disappointed by this part of the movie. I'm not, but I probably just see this movie through rose-colored glasses since I like it so much.
     
  9. Semah

    Semah Commander Red Shirt

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    No Nerd Rage is more pure than Trek Nerd Rage.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I hope I'm as impressed as you are. :) Took a whole week of vacation around this film. Jim Kirk is my favorite character and I don't want his ascension to feel cheap.
     
  11. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well, that's the key. The audience will forgive a movie's failings if they want to, and they will want to if they are being entertained. This is the only reason that Trek fans go so easy on the Franchise's frequent lapses in common sense and logic, and have since the very beginning.

    When fannish good will is absent, as it was with some of the later Trek movies and TV series, the creators get crucified for doing the exact same things that were not a source of complaint at an earlier time. And then fans pretend that they didn't know better or didn't notice - "yeah, but that was a long time ago. Just because they didn't get it right then is no excuse for being lazy now" - when what they mean is "I don't like this show and I'm not cutting them the slack I do when I'm enjoying myself."
     
  12. Semah

    Semah Commander Red Shirt

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    I need to introduce you to a few grad students I know.
     
  13. urbandk

    urbandk Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, I hear you. He has his strengths and weaknesses in the movie; he seems like a punk at first. Even late in the academy, I was just kinda shaking my head at how dumb he was acting. You'll recall from "Shore Leave" that Kirk reminisces about how serious and studious he was at the academy. He might be studious but he ain't serious here. In his trial by fire, he makes a couple excellent judgments; he keeps old Spock's secret and baits young Spock in what actually was a deliberate, cool-headed act, despite appearances to the contrary in the trailers and previews. At the end of the film, he seems to bear the responsibility of command. Yeah, it all happens really fast, but I guess the filmmakers had to go from angry, impudent Kirk to leadership quality Kirk rather fast. I suppose the crucible he has to undergo might explain it, or just the exigencies of storytelling. I hope you aren't disappointed.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Saw Nemesis twice in the theatre. This couldn't possibly be worse. :)
     
  15. Ryan Thomas Riddle

    Ryan Thomas Riddle Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which is exactly how Kirk was portrayed in TOS on more than one occasion and I'm glad that Orci recognized that. In fact, we get shown this in the bar scene where Kirk knows about Xenolinguistics.

    Speaking of which...

    Many a well-educated man (or woman) has ended up in a bar getting drunk.

    From what's been revealed about Kirk in this film so far, there is context for why he is hanging out in Iowa bars and putting a few back.
     
  16. adg

    adg Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Believe me, I understand your concern. Jim Kirk is a special character. I also want him to not be cheapened. I am willing to give this movie more than the benefit of the doubt, though. So I am willing to see for myself.

    Just one more month!!
     
  17. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    Personally I saw INS as worse, because it not only had the same idiot factor, but because it was boring as all hell too.
     
  18. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But Donna Murphy (Anij) is smoking hot. Advantage: Insurrection :p
     
  19. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    She was also horrible at acting.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty shallow. Watch Headline News for two hours every morning just because of Robin Meade. And I couldn't even tell you what the headlines were when I turn it off.