World Premiere/Advance screening discussions [SPOILERS GUARANTEED]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by M'Sharak, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. Cheebo

    Cheebo Captain Captain

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    You know I was wondering, I get that the Kelvin blowing to bits had a huge impact on Kirk's life and altered the timeline for him and thus his actions in starfleet and when he met his crew...etc.

    But why would it effect when the Enterprise itself it built? Why would the Kelvin blowing to bits cause the Enterprise to not be built for at least 10-15 years later than it was intended since it was a brand new ship when Pike took it Vulcan apparently according to what Pike says and in the old timeline Pike was captain of it for I believe 11 years?

    Thats the only thing I can't figure out.
     
  2. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because the construction of that vessel was not delayed. There was a Constitution-class vessel, nearly identical to the TOS Enterprise, that was launched from orbital drydock at the time that the TOS Enterprise would have been.

    In fact, that ship would have been the "Enterprise" except for the Kelvin disaster.

    Instead, it was christened "U.S.S. Robau."
     
  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Where did you hear that there would be a trilogy? Apparently a sequel is being written, but that's all I'm aware of right now regarding any more films.
     
  4. Supervisor 194

    Supervisor 194 Captain Captain

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    Strawman argument. Just because Spock is going to have a different background doesn't preclude him being well-written or layered.
     
  5. ODO_FAN_1977

    ODO_FAN_1977 Cadet Newbie

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    With regards to the erosion of viewers from DS9, I do put part of the blame on the attitude of some fans. In particular, those fans who argued that the show was "boring" because it was set on a space station and didn't go anywhere. As someone who feels that DS9 really pushed the franchise forward, creatively speaking, these comments still upset me to this day. Not to mention, that these comments probably made Berman and company less likely to take risks, particularly when it came to VOY, In fact, I find a lot of the criticism of VOY particularly interesting since it many respects Berman and company gave some what they asked for (BTW, I like VOY, despite some of its shortcomings).

    When it comes to Star Trek XI, I have very mixed feelings, in part because of the above. One of the things I have noticed in the reviews that have come out, is that they seem very dismissive of the material that preceded the film. The tag line "forget all you know" does not help much either.

    Furthermore, while the reviewers seem to focus on how great the film looks (no surprise given the budget), the spoilers suggest that the film threads on very familiar ground (revenge plot, weapon of mass destruction), while not pushing the envelope in terms of story or sci-fi content. Also, based on the spoilers, I do not really see the need for creating an alternative timeline. IMO, they could have crafted a good origin story, while keeping the timeline more or less intact. Some inconsistencies and were bound to happen in any such story (even the most hardcore fan will admit to the inconsistencies present in the first season of TOS regarding the nature of Earth, Starfleet, and the Federation), but the destruction of Vulcan, death of Amanda, and the changes these events will undoable have on the character of Spock seem drastic and unnecessary. As some have already pointed out, this is bound to change the dynamic between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, the heart of TOS.

    With that said, I am looking forward to the Kobayashi Maru scene, Kirk meeting McCoy, Kirk meeting Old Spock, and Greenwood's performance as Pike among others.

    As a Star Trek fan since 1987, when I first saw TVH on video, followed by TNG shortly thereafter, I want Star Trek XI to be succeed. However, I am bothered by this tendency of bashing the previous incarnations of Star Trek as way to promote or elevate this film's worth.

    Each Star Trek, whether it was Rodenberry's, Meyer's, Berman's, Behr's and Abrams' has had its strengths and weaknesses.
     
  6. Neopeius

    Neopeius Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, "bones" being derived from "sawbones" because McCoy was a doctor was too abstruse for the average moviegoer to get.

    Enjoy your mediocrity, Dennis.
     
  7. Kaych

    Kaych Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I'll just say this, I'm in my senior year of high school, representing the target audience for this movie, and I've never heard of the term "sawbones" until now. Considering I don't know what it is, I can pretty much tell you no one else under 25 will either.
     
  8. section9

    section9 Commander Red Shirt

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    The cast are optioned for three films. Dead giveaway. JJ has LOTR ambitions, methinks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  9. Lazerlike42

    Lazerlike42 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    While I am not particularly concerned with the particular point that you and FarDreaming are discussing, I must point out that you are arguing in circles now.

    Originally, FarDreaming said that they will need to seriously change the character of Spock from TOS because of the destruction of Vulcan. To this, you said:

    "If Spock were a real person, you'd be absolutely correct. However, as a fictional character Spock is literally whatever the writers say he is. I suspect the Kirk/Spock/McCoy we see coming out of the film will be close to the general confines of the characters established by TOS. Does that work if you compare them to the events of TOS? Probably not, but that's just the way ongoing fiction works."

    To this, FarDreaming replied that this sort of thing is the difference between a well-written character and a poorly written one. A poorly written character simply has the personality that the writers want him to, even if it does not make sense given his experiences. A well-written character, on the other hand, has a personality which flows from and is connected to the experiences he's had.

    Your response is now that just because Spock has a different background from Spock Prime, it doesn't prevent him from being well-written. This is certainly true.

    However, the original point that FarDreaming made was that if this new Spock is to be well-written, he will not be able to be the same as Spock Prime because of the dramatic differences in their life experiences. The destrcution of Vulcan will have to lead him to be a very different character. If the creators simply ignore this tremendous event in his life and write him to be very similar to Spock Prime because "that's what they want him to be," then he will be poorly written. If they take into account that he has lost his entire planet and write him accordingly differently, he can be well-written.

    The point is that he can not be both well-written and very similar to Spock Prime, because Spock Prime never experienced this event that must surely shape the "new" Spock's personality in a profound way.
     
  10. Supervisor 194

    Supervisor 194 Captain Captain

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    In a sequel: it is possible Spock can be well-written, and follow up on the events of the first movie OR Spock could be well-written and the events of the first film not be mentioned at all. Or he could be poorly written. In any event, the events of the film do not "lock" Spock into anything other than what the writers choose for him. It is entirely possible to get a Spock/McCoy/Kirk dynamic that is similar to TOS by way of the events of the first film, if that's what the film makers choose to do.
     
  11. Captain X

    Captain X Rear Admiral

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    And stupidity like that is why Hollywood dumbs down pretty much everything that it puts out, because the assumption is that its audience is too stupid to be inspired to look something up if they don't understand it, and don't possibly want to learn anything from a movie or TV show.
     
  12. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    ^^ True. Shows like Star Trek and Outer Limits sent me off to the library many times when I was in grade school.

    It occurs to me that an even better comparison for this movie than "Heroes Reborn" would be the "Second Foundation Trilogy," the attempt by the Killer Bs to "modernize" Asimov. The three books were written by three very talented SF writers and contained many good ideas-- but those ideas were either contrary to what Asimov had established or completely inappropriate for the Foundation series (in fact, their explanation for the Human-only Galaxy is even more colossally inappropriate than the destruction of Vulcan is). So, instead of being an epic, it became an epic fail.
     
  13. Cky

    Cky Captain Captain

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    Is there an after-credit scene?
     
  14. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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    ONLY 10,000 VULCANS LEFT??? Sorry, but I just cannot believe that. I mean they've been travelling through space for millennia, they must have plenty of colony worlds out there full of their own kind, i.e. the aforementioned Vulcanis Lunar Colony. I'd say there has to be considerably more than a mere ten thousand.

    I still hate that they've destroyed Vulcan. I'd love for Spock Prime to travel a little way back in time and stop Nero from blowing it away, but I don't suppose we'll be getting that :(
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But does that necessarily mean that three films will be *made*?
     
  16. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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    A thought that's just occurred to me: We know that a clone of Earth exists in the episode Miri. Well if there can be another Earth, why not another Vulcan? Maybe in the new timeline, such a duplicate world could become the new home of the refugees from the prime Vulcan? They'd have no trouble interbreeding with the planet's indigenous Vulcans, thus ensuring their race's continued survival in the Trek universe. :)
     
  17. iguana_tonante

    iguana_tonante Admiral Admiral

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    While I'm not sure that the creators are putting all that thought into it, the idea of Vulcan Diaspora surfaced of me, too. Maybe it's just because Nimoy infused his acting with some Jewish culture and symbolism, but the resonance is there.

    Well, we will see.
     
  18. ralph

    ralph Captain Captain

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    Please tell me.

    [LEFT]will we see the crew together in the final scene?
    Will we see Kirk in capitain chair?[/LEFT]
     
  19. Stag

    Stag Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Just to jump in the fray here and add my thoughts for what they are worth - I indeed believe it was the writer's intent to have the 'Bones' nickname for McCoy be short for 'Sawbones' the Civil War era term for a doctor. (Because of the perception that all they ever did to treat bullet wounds to limbs was saw the limb off).

    I believe this to be so because of two reasons. One, television at the time leading up to the premiere of the TOS was littered with cowboy and western shows, many times in these shows a doctor was referred to as a 'Sawbones' so it would be a term that was familiar to the general TV watching public.
    Secondly, Rodenberry pitched his show as 'Wagon Train to the stars!" to the TV execs. Wagon Train being a popular western TV show at the time. I think when the McCoy character was added it was done so to create a familiar atmosphere for the casual viewer while still having a sci-fi show.

    Remember the only other space faring Doctor on TV at the time was Dr. Smith of Lost in Space, and well, we did not want that perception of McCoy did we?
     
  20. Naldo

    Naldo Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    If...IF this is correct, then not only are they following in the finest traditions of Trek storytelling but they have transcended it.

    It is a fairly well known fact that Leonard Nimoy is very active within the Jewish community/causes and this could very well explain his enthusiasm for Abrams' project.

    You have reined in my trepidation and I am now drooling again to see this film. Thank you!