Will I like Torchwood if I never saw Doctor Who?

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Dream, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Blamo

    Blamo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nope, no requirement to see Doctor Who prior to Torchwodod.

    Personally speaking, the show is a bit irregular in it's quality and has numerous issues.

    Season 1 could be subtitled "Men Rule, Women Drool" given the majority of the seasons treatment of women. It's so bad the show actually felt openly misogynistic without having to read too deeply into it. I'm still not sure if that came about purely by accident... but even then it seems a stretch to say all those coincidences didn't add up to some deep seated misogyny.

    I mean come on, there were only 13 episodes and in them the only two times lesbian sexuality was brought up, they were both due to a woman possessed by an evil alien. Different women possessed by different aliens I might add.

    The season arc is pretty much everything you'd expect from an RTD run show, in that it was utterly awful and totally nonsensical.

    Season 1 felt like an immature view of what an adult show should be, with a focus on sex and swearing rather than adult characterisation and issues ("Cyberwoman" is perhaps the greatest example of what it's target audience truly was, or atleast the mental age of it's writers.)

    Season 2 was an improvement, but that's not saying much. The characters however are now more likable, much better written and a lot of what occured to them in season 1 gets simply forgotten (which is for the better sad to say).

    Season 3(the specials) was really excellent and I'd go as far as to say it's probably the best TV sci-fi around (though not something I'd want to watch for extended periods of time). A huge shock compared to the prior two seasons I can tell you. This is what Torchwood should have been and to be honest I wonder how much input RTD actually had in this.

    Season 4 I haven't seen.

    Overall the only reason I stuck with Torchwood was because of it's connection to Doctor Who. A real real shame since the concept itself was actually good.
     
  2. Pindar

    Pindar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The hand he lost in the Christmas Invasion.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Except there weren't any boobs. Just about all the explicit nudity was male. There was plenty of fanservice for heterosexual women and gay men, but virtually none for people who'd rather look at female bodies.


    I don't know where you get "misogyny" from it. Most of the creative staff of the show were gay men, so they were writing material that appealed to gay men, hence the heavy focus on male characters and male sexuality. There were a couple of lesbian scenes, a number of hetero scenes, but the women's bodies were never as exposed as the men's were. The women were less sexualized overall, which doesn't seem consistent with a charge of misogyny.
     
  4. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Jack's "Doctor detector" from "Utopia" (the Doctor's severed hand from "The Christmas Invasion") can be seen several times in the Torchwood Hub during Series 1.
     
  5. Stevil2001

    Stevil2001 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wait, who's the gay writer on Torchwood other than Russell T Davies?
     
  6. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    I just started TW. I finished the first two episodes last night.

    My first impression? Well this is new. I've NEVER seen a UK show before today, so it took a while getting use to the new locations, cars and the fact that the drivers sit on the right side.

    S01E01: Everything Changes
    Well it looks like Gwen is going to be our eyes into Torchwood. I thought it was a good pilot, when pilots mostly turn out to be shaky. I liked the murder mystery with the killer and how it ended up being connected with Torchwood. The Weevil was a neat first monster for the show.

    The underground Torchwood office looked really cool. There were tons of strange stuff and I look forward to seeing more.


    S01E02: Day One
    The "sex monster" episode. I remember that Angel also had one for its second episode. The alien gas arrives from a fallen rock and possesses a teenage girl. The girl goes around having sex with people to feed or whatever.

    To be honest, I felt a little bored. I've seen this type of story plenty of times before. This episode felt way too much like Species at times. I've noticed how really immature some of the Torchwood characters are at times, especially the part when Owen gets the clothes stolen off his back along with his car keys. I feel like they could almost be high school students instead of trained professionals. That's different... I guess. Still really don't know any of the characters very well except for Gwen. Captain Jack Harkness is still being kept a mystery, with the most important question about whether he is gay or not.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  7. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I much prefer Torchwood to DW. But the first season is awful.
     
  8. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    The first season really tries too hard to be "adult", and in the process ends up being a bit silly.

    The second season is much more self-aware and is the better for it.

    The third season is fantastic, but a complete departure from what came before.

    Still haven't see all of season 4. I'll probably finish it sometime.
     
  9. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Agree. S4 has some okay-ish moments (and nice Trek nods) but can't sustain thin premise over length. S2 & 3 definitely the best. Would love another one though in that vein :)
     
  10. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Well maybe if the BBC decides to fund a new series on it's own, they'll either return to episodic format of S1-2 or go the rout of S4 and only do a 5 parter.
     
  11. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It wasn't misogynist, it was immature and obnoxious. The show never actually dealt with sexuality maturely. It was just a series of tedious scenes of good looking people of the same sex fondling. Scenes like James Marsters saying he'd like to fuck a dog, or him and Jack snogging aren't mature.

    They're the TV equivalent of two drunk straight sluts kissing in public to get people's attention. It's just lazy and annoying. "Look at me, look at me!". No, you're not shocking. You're just shit.
     
  12. Blamo

    Blamo Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the first season there isn't one positive or even neutral female character, not one out of Gwen, Toshiko and Suzie. Toshiko was pathetic, Gwen was a total bi*th and Suzie was evil. The only negative male character was Owen.

    In the very first episode we have Owen using his very morally questionable spray to get laid. At most he got a raised eyebrow from Jack.

    There's the woman as a sexual predator, who even prays on gay men who tell her no.

    Then there's the portrayal of lesbianism in the first season. On both of the two occasions, it was instigated by a different woman possessed by a different evil alien. In fact I'm not sure this was improved upon in season two, where the two victorian Torchwood women (who were shown to bring our hero Jack to heel) were portrayed as evil lesbians.

    Less sexualised? We had Gwen being being snogged by another woman while the men sat back and were entertained. We also had the infamous Cyberwoman, whose "outfit" made Seven of Nine's look positively progressive.
     
  13. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I think that's a very subjective assessment. I liked Gwen and Tosh. Gwen has been a mostly positive character throughout, at least as positive as anyone gets on Torchwood. She has her flaws, but she's the heart and conscience of the team. And Tosh has her insecurities, but is perhaps the nicest character.

    But as I've said, there was more graphic male nudity than female. I'm pretty sure that post-watershed BBC shows are allowed to show bare breasts -- and shows on the Starz cable network, as Torchwood: Miracle Day was, are certainly allowed to -- but we never saw any in the series's entire run. Conversely, we were shown plenty of bare male backsides, certainly more than I ever wanted to see. In Miracle Day, there's a rather graphic and extended sex scene between Jack and a male lover, more graphic than any hetero or lesbian scene in the entire series.
     
  14. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    What Owen did was a little too much like date rape for me. If he doesn't have time to date women in order to get laid, can't he get a prostitute or something? Not sure how the UK handles prostitutes.

    That scene was only saved in the end when he decided to make it a three way with the other boyfriend.

    Yeah, that is one of the reasons why I think the characters feel like teenagers. I mean... what the hell? Shouldn't they be worried Gwen would become the next victim?

    I have to admit that scene was hot, the Gwen actress is cute, but the girl that they got to play the possessed victim look too underage for me, which ended up making the whole episode feel kind of gross.
     
  15. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    How!? She cheats on Rhys and is a general bitch to everybody. The only way she's the heart of the show is because Russell T. Davies keeps telling the audience how "marvellous" she is. He spoonfed the audience the exact same thing about Rose. His writing is all tell and no show.
     
  16. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    In... that vein? I thought of all the four seasons, just in terms of what the show was like and what it's status quo was, Series 2 -> Series 3 was the largest jump. Wouldn't say they're in the same vein at all.

    I like that Gwen completely cheated on Rhys and got away with it. No typical TV resolution; she cheated on him in Season 1 and then... from Season 2+, they're treated as the happy couple with Rhys completely unaware, even as he says typical RTD "My wife is purrfect" stuff, I find it quite funny.

    No, my big issue with Gwen is how a pretty good character devolved into a complete parody in perfect hack fashion. What started as a snarky, sarcastic side turned into someone who acted like a monster. By Miracle Day, she was either acting like a psycho (shooting people / bazookas with baby in hand) or like a ravenous dog barking at everyone (any scenes she had with Q-from-TNG-but-now-CIA). And RTD expects us to cheer her on. No wonder Torchwood came to a screeching halt after MD.

    So true. The amount of "You're brilliant!"/"The Doctor... is the greatest man I ever met"/"Human beings; the most humanest, greatest species, capable of anything"/"And in that moment, which happened to be Episode 13, (Insert Companion) was the greatest, most brilliant woman who ever lived and most important ever"/(Sexy cry) was nauseating, as you could often just shift them around DW, TW and SJA as to the same thing being said but at what time of the year.
     
  17. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "You're the most remarkable man I've ever met!"

    *vomits*
     
  18. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    Guys, can you cool it with the SPOILERS?

    I'm only on the second episode! Luckily my eyes are trained to completely skip posts that go into a little too much detail. :lol:

    Please put all spoilers underl the spoiler tags or whatever you call it. Thanks.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Can people please stop using that misogynistic epithet? It makes any attempts to accuse the show of misogyny seem rather hypocritical.
     
  20. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    A) The word "bitch" is not inherently misogynistic. It's a term for both male and females to describe someone who is relentless in their assertiveness of one, and only one, perspective and refusing to compromise with those around them to the extent of actively being mean to those around them. It has everything to do with the content of the character; nothing to do with the gender.

    B) DalekJim explicitly said he doesn't believe Torchwood was misogynistic and wasn't one of the ones providing that opinion, so there's nothing hypocritical about what he said.
     

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