WI: The Enterprise-E is stranded in the Delta Quadrant?

Discussion in 'The Next Generation' started by JJohnson, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Scorpion Part II
    Admittedly after Voyager's second incursion into Fluidic Space:
    The word "we've" would seem to be the key. Does "we've" mean the Borg, or does it mean Voyager and the Borg.

    The next important part is that our "galaxy is a threat to their genetic integrity." That would strongly support the idea that all the life forms of the galaxy are a threat and referrs back to out galaxy needing to be purged.

    So purging of the galaxy was their intent very early on because of threat to the genetic integrity and its proximity to theirs.

    You cannot negotiate with anyone who believes that, until you prove you're powerful enough to defeat them or hold them at bay.

    Voyager had the know how, the Borg had the capabilities.

    Picard would not have liked it, maybe even consider it a last option. But allying with the Borg was the right thing. Unless, as was said, Species 8472 was completely rewritten.

    If Species 8472 thought the galaxy was threat from the moment the Borg entered then Picard could not have negotiated a single thing with them.
     
  2. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picard would never have cooperated with the Borg, even to destroy Species 8472. He might have successfully brokered an alliance with 8472, convinced them that the rest of the organics are not responsible for the Borg's attack on them.

    But, if he had the opportunity to rescue any borg from the collective he would have taken it.
     
  3. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    The question still remains how do you negotiate with a species that is vastly more powerful than you and thinks you are a threat to its genetic integrity? At least the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians will show respect to those who are on their level technologically and are willing to fight. Species 8472 saw the galaxy as a threat because we were a threat to their very core, their belief that they are genetically superior.
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They said the "genetic integrity" line AFTER Voyager had invaded their realm. Given we didn't see much of their culture, that could easily be the equivalent of, "you have violated the sacred soil of my homeland." It doesn't mean an invader's foot is harming the physical soil, but an expression that the defender is going to fight for their home. I'd say they have every right to be POed about Voyager's involvement against them from day one. For all they knew the whole galaxy was against them, certainly Voyager was or appeared to be cooperating with the Borg and hostile towards them in every encounter. The only thing 8472 is guilty of, is having the audacity to hit back when attacked.
     
  5. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    A retaliatory strike would be a defensible position one that Janeway and Picard would have understood. But they took it a step further, and made no attempt to distinguish friend from foe. Or even tell the Borg to stay away or Voyager to not get involved.
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why should they have? They had no way of knowing being they came from a universe where one power was in control. Certainly when Voyager tries tractoring that Bioship, then beaming it up, then boarding it all as if they were entitled to do so, then were seen next being protected by the Borg, they had every right to assume Voyager was in league with their enemies... they were.
     
  7. Xhiandra

    Xhiandra Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It seems you're thinking based on the foreknowledge of how the events unfold.
    A few points:
    1. Undine Behaviour:
    - The Undine aren't humanoids.
    - The first humanoid race they encounter is the Borg.
    - They are the only sentient species in (their part of) fluidic space; so they haven't even encountered any other species prior to the Borg invasion.
    - Voyager's actions at that point could be easily interpreted as hostile.
    - The Undine that wounds Harry Kim does so in a split second in a dark environment and surrounded by other humanoids; the virus is seemingly part of the Undine's biology, not a deliberate malicious act.

    2. Picard's modus operandi:
    - Picard wouldn't let his emotion (anger over the Kim incident) clould his judgment of a whole species; especially not with the potential misunderstandings outlined in 1.
    - Picard doesn't hold other powers to the standards of the Federation; he's always willing to extend a hand to a former enemy or a less utopian power, to make a leap of faith: we're not saying the Undine are nice guys here, we're just saying that, by the time Janeway decides to ally with the Borg, she has precious little to judge the Undine by.

    3. Even if one dismisses potential misunderstandings, the Undines' crime of "not making an effort to distinguish friend from foe" pales in comparison to the Borg's cime of "assimilating or destroying all in their path"; something evidenced with more than a single telepath's vague recollections.
    So, even then, they still look like the lesser evil.

    The only way the Undine appear to be the greater evil is if:
    - You take their desire to "purge the galaxy of genetic impurity" to be genuine (which the series denies later on).
    - You judge the allegories they represent rather than their actions: one could see the Undine as nazis (purging impure genes...) and the Borg as the USSR/Maoist China (forced assimilation into a system that enforces equality through stripping individuality); at which point most western audiences would judge the latter a lesser evil.

    In fact, this thread mostly outlines that the writers didn't really question the realism (in terms of character behaviour: Janeway's decision is just insane) of their cool premise and ran with it from exposition till happy end.
     
  8. Zeppster

    Zeppster Commodore Commodore

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    The series would only last one episode because Picard and the Enterprise with it's heavy fire power would destroy the Kazon and find a way to use the Caretaker vessel to take the E back to the Alpha Quadrant.

    But in concept the only way Picard ever allys himself with the Borg is if he has some level of greater strength than Janeway had to somehow turn on the Borg. Or if Species 8472... started killing off Enterprise crew members. But Picard would have likely tried to go around Borg space and avoided direct confrontation of the Borg at all costs. Even with the ship built to destroy Borg vessels like the E was you don't take on a ton of them at once.
     
  9. What episode did Picard go to the edge of the universe? The crew went to a different galaxy, but they needed the help of the Traveler to get back.
     

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