Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoilers

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Bones, Jun 18, 2013.

  1. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    That's a misuse of the word "objective."

    It really was a great movie as far as I'm concerned, and certainly more tightly written than STID. Cavill's Clark/Superman is now my favorite, with a possible sentimental exception for George Reeves.

    Look, it's just a fact that a lot more people around the world are familiar with and intrigued by Superman than by Star Trek.
     
  2. Kabraxal

    Kabraxal Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    I just can't see how it is "tighter" or in any way better written than ST. I had so many issues all over from Zod and Jor-el, to the tornado scene, the flashbacks being fairly poorly intermixed into the pacing, the fight scene at the end, to the "he's hot" line. So many "huh?" moments with fairly bad dialogue and so many moments where suspension of disbelief is just utterly torn to shreds... it was not a well written movie at all.

    Let's not even get into the Lois fiasco. That was the plot contriving ways to fit her in at most points and that was it. So not even close to being anywhere near as well written as Trek.

    It is easily the worst iteration of Superman I have seen on TV or screen. Though, it might not have reached the depths of some of the comic iterations yet. It's gotten so bad in the comics that I have stopped reading them.
     
  3. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    To me, Man of Steel was a fine, fun movie with some good storytelling and the best Superman character so far. YMMV, as we say. I mean, in Superman II he flat-out murders Zod for no reason. At least here he had little choice, and he couldn't just stop the battle to save individual people caught in the cross-fire.

    Yeah. Fun and good, but not one for the history books, unlike the first one.

    Not sure I follow you. Movies are, by their nature, and on average, more action-oriented than novels, comics, series and plays.

    Let's agree on that.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Man of Steel definitely had less 'WTF?' moments plot-wise than Into Darkness.
     
  5. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    I think its script was better structured, and raised fewer questions (such as Marcus' exact plan, or how Khan fits into all this, which we've been discussing here.)

    Really ? That's a problem with the plot ?

    In a superhero movie ? Get out ! ;)

    This just serves to show that even technical aspects of the production are up to subjective interpretation. There's no objective way to judge a movie except by its short- and long-term success.

    I can think of Khan and Carol Marcus as STID characters that were not entirely justified and forced into the story at some points.

    I take it you haven't seen the one with Richard Pryor...
     
  6. Kabraxal

    Kabraxal Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    I actually like all the previous entries, even Returns. As for the "hot" line that was just icing on the cake so to speak... without the horrid tornado scene, Lois magically being where she needs to be for no reason other than the plot called for it, the whole final fight that completely removed me from the movie, all the way to THAT scene.. it was constant jarring sequences for me.

    Also.. in Superman II he actually doesn't kill Zod. They cut the scene in the theatrical release but it was supposed to show that they were basically being confined back into the Phantom Zone.
     
  7. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    So he doesn't kill Zod in a cut of the movie that wasn't released in theatres ? Yeah, I'm talking about the theatrical release, sir. Don't tell me he doesn't kill Zod. He crushes his hand and kills him although he is now completely harmless. He falls to his death. Then Lois kills Ursa and all Supes does is smile, as though premeditated murder is funny.

    So, please, don't talk about Man of Steel betraying the titular character.
     
  8. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Don't forget the person who insisted that the "real" James Kirk would never indulge in casual sex--and that Gene Roddenberry would have never stooped to including sex appeal and skimpy costumes in STAR TREK! :)

    I admit my jaw dropped at that one. Had they even watched TOS?
     
  9. Kabraxal

    Kabraxal Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Except it was added into the DOnner cut. And even taking that into account, Superman II showed him actually concerned with people in the fight in the city... unlike this one that shows He and Zod probably killing thousands as they fight.

    Sorry if I went into MoS expecting to love it and coming out hating it and hoping for a new reboot... I would rather have enjoyed the movie instead of being disgusted by it. Believe me. I waited 7 years for another Superman film and now I have to wait longer for a good one. Maybe the sequel will get better... certainly can't get worse to me personally.
     
  10. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Yeah, but you don't get to ignore one of two cuts (the most well-known one) and then say he didn't kill him. He did so with a smile. And then he goes back to the diner and kicks the trucker's ass in revenge. That's not the Superman I know from the comics.

    "Don't do it ! The people !" :D

    Apples to oranges. First, did you spot the spaceship that almost flattened Metropolis ? That did most of the damage, I'd think. Second, the battle is way more brutal. In II, the Kryptonians were trying to kill Superman. In MoS, Zod was trying to kill humans.

    I believe you. Wouldn't we all want to love all the movies we see ?

    It's unfortunate you didn't like it, but like with STID, I don't appreciate when people pretend that something X that a new movie did is somehow different from the X that a previous entry of the same franchise did; an entry they happen to like. I think it's important to keep perspective.
     
  11. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Whoa. I'm biased, of course, but are you seriously saying that Superman III, Superman Returns, and, holy god, Superman IV: The Quest for Peace were better movies?

    The mind boggles . . . .
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  12. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Returns wasn't too bad. It was too much of a homage to I and II to be worth a sequel, but I liked it, and Spacey as Luthor.
     
  13. Kabraxal

    Kabraxal Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    My list is pretty much II, I, Returns, III, IV, and MoS. The older serials were good, though definitely dated. MoS just never felt like a real Superman movie while I was watching it.

    I think I came at II and that scene with a perception that he didn't kill them. Even before I saw Donner's cut I never believed he had outright killed Zod for some reason. Course I was like 7 when I first saw it :p

    As for the trucker scene.. yeah, I'll give that one. It was a bit odd that he didn't let it be. Didn't really understand it.

    I also think what hurts MoS is that Smallville did the origin story already and had done it for 10 years just before this movie came out essentially... and really did it better. I could by the angstier levels and the struggle of becoming Superman. I think MoS really probably lost me when they had him be so conflicted after donning the suit. In every other Superman story, when he takes the suit.. he is beyond that struggle to realise who he is and what he does.

    In MoS, that understanding comes... maybe... at the end of the film, when he's had the suit for a while already. Just doesn't fit the mythology. And Superman is one of the few characters I just give very little leeway for messing with... he's the ideal. The Boy Scout. He should never be anything less and I just felt MoS didn't truly understand that.
     
  14. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    If we're getting nostalgic, I remember being very disappointed with SUPERMAN II when it first came out because of all the slapstick comedy Lester added--and the way the movie softened Zod and Co. The first movie did an effective job of building up Zod and Ursa and Non as genuinely scary threats. Heck, we're told that Ursa actually murdered children back on Krypton (a line that was conspicuously deleted from the flashback to their trial in SUPERMAN II). After Hackman's comedic take on Luthor, I was looking forward to seeing Superman take on some truly menacing super-villains.

    Alas, while the sequel still had it moments, there was also lots of campy silliness with super-breath, expandable Superman logos made out of Saran wrap, and memory-erasing kisses.

    Which, to be fair, probably works when you're seven, but I was in college at the time and hoping for something a little more serious! :)

    I felt like the new movie finally gave me the all-out battle between Superman and Zod that I've been waiting for since 1978 . . ..
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  15. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2012
    Location:
    Meatloaf with Macaroni and Cheese
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    *starts humming Superman theme*
     
  16. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Location:
    Oxford, PA
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Exactly. The movie has it virtues (the airplane scene is terrific), but, in the end, it probably coasted too heavily on nostalgia for the Donner film instead of going its own way.
     
  17. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2001
    Location:
    Hotel Transylvania
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Clark also had a confrontation with another jerk Trucker in MOS, he didn't quite leave it be either! The way he responded was funny, but a bit rude... :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2013
  18. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Location:
    In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Well that's to be expected from a series vs a movie.

    I think that was the whole point of the movie, so I didn't mind.

    We have to avoid being purists, however. Each version of the same story will be different.

    Yeah, although by that time he wasn't Superman yet. And he didn't beat him up or anything.
     
  19. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2001
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    All of this.

    Never cared for Lester's work on the Superman movies.

    Yep.
     
  20. Noname Given

    Noname Given Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    None Given
    Re: Why would someone avoid STID but see Iron Man & Man Of Steel? spoi

    Sorry, can't agree:

    1) Kryptonians explored space for 100,000 years; yet when faced with the destruction of their world (and in this version no one disagrees with Jor El's assessment); can't/won't evacuate even though they are aware of plenty of habitable worlds in range? WTF?

    2) Jor El owns/rides a 'flying dragon' (shades of 'Dragon Riders of Pern, or 'Avatar'.) WTF?

    3) All Kryptonians are cloned (ala 'The Matrix'); and genetically designed to be the best at their assigned job/role/function. (This is a first for any version of the Superman mythos.) WTF?

    4) The 'sacred Codex' (which is somehow the basis of all cloned Kryptonians); is a black, decaying and desiccated partial skull suspended in a laser beam. WTF?

    5) When Clarks is talking to Johnathan Kent about the school bus incident, and Clark asks "Should I have let them die?" and Johnathan answers, "Yes, maybe..." (sorry but for me definitely WTF?)

    6) Johnathan dies because he doesn't want Clark going back out to save the family dog - and somehow risk exposing his powers to witnesses (even though if it did appear Clark was killed in that instance Clark could have easily come up with an explanation as to how he lived - and the dog wouldn't be able to tell ANYONE of Clark's powers...) WTF?

    7) Kal El (aka Superman), who has spent his life avoiding fights, and was not trained to fight by anyone (least of all Johnathan Kent) can, somehow, defeat three kryptonian soldiers, and in the end General Zod himself (after Zod had acclimated to the Earth's atmosphere and his newfound abilities, including flight which he did in the final combat sequence) -- ALL of whom were genetically engineered as well as trained their entire lives to be nothing but combat soldiers...WTF?

    Star Trek: Into Darkness:

    1) For some reason Kirk decides to hide the U.S.S. Enterprise in the ocean of a primitive planet. WTF?

    2) With 70+ odd genetically engineered 'supermen' in stasis; McCoy couldn't have removed one and used his blood to save Kirk? (Allowing Spock to kill Khan, etc if he so wished.) WTF?

    3) The U.S. Enterprise can somehow be pulled/fall into Earth's gravity well/atmosphere 200,000+ miles from Earth (IE while in Lunar orbit.) WTF?

    In the ST:ID story context as present, the above are pretty much all the major WTF? moments that make little sense. Overall it's still about half (give or take) of the WTF? moments in Man of Steel :techman::wtf:;)