Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doctor

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Noddy, Aug 7, 2013.

  1. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Hopefully.
     
  2. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    The issue as a whole, not just those two pages that Bleeding Cool printed, is more ambiguous on that point. For one thing, Lady Priyan could just as easily have been referring to Grandfather Paradox; Andy Diggle takes an idea from The Gallifrey Chronicles and runs with it in an unexpected direction. For another thing, it's not clear if the Doctor himself rejected the name during those days ("The End of Time, Part Two" suggests that he didn't) or if the Time Lords (or only some of them) considered him unworthy of the name. In any event, the Doctor seems proud in this issue of what he did with the Moment, which feeds back into the idea that whatever the Doctor did that was un-Doctor-ish, it probably was not the use of the Moment and the destruction of Gallifrey.

    In short, for the TL,DR crowd, what I'm saying is that for those who hold the idea that Eccleston's Doctor was the Time War Doctor, this issue doesn't rule out that hypothesis.

    So, the end of the Time War was really due to post-regenerative confusion? Instead of strangling Peri half to death like his sixth incarnation, Eccleston's Doctor destroyed his homeworld? Sounds good to me. :guffaw:

    Seriously, though, if Hurt's Doctor was the Time War Doctor, then whatever it was that made him anathema to the eleventh Doctor in "The Name of the Doctor" was in Hurt's past because Hurt, with his one line of dialogue, refers to it in the past tense which may suggest, perhaps even strongly, that Hurt lives beyond the end of the Time War.

    Given John Hurt's tweets about Peter Capaldi and the rumors about series 8, I don't really expect that we'll see a regeneration from Hurt to Eccleston. And that's without going into the problems of stock footage resolution (since series 1 was shot in SD and not HD) and whether or not there would be contractual royalties due to Eccleston if it were done.
     
  3. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Probably still cheaper to use stock footage of Eccleston than to pay him to actually be there and shoot him.

    Which really wouldn't shock me - I mean hell the Name of the Doctor used stock footage of all but 8, 9 and 10 - even colorized a 1st Doctor - which I think was pretty cool actually. Although I'm sure some smarty pants will go 'they showed all 11' yeah but the ass of 9, the bottom of 10's trenchcoat and trainers, the possibly back part of 8, don't really 'count' - those were probably Moffat and Smith themselves running around Clara. LOL

    BBC I'm sure owns the rights to what they shot and can use it however they wish if it furthers a story.
     
  4. captain crow

    captain crow Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Judging by the way Smith's Doctor acted towards Hurt's at the end of "The Name of the Doctor" it was the Doctor himself who rejected 9.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  5. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    There's really no reason to think that there isn't more than one Time War Doctor, is there? Something could have happened to the Doctor that caused him to regenerate in the middle of the Time War. Hell, maybe a couple times? I've never seen the TV movie; do we know the fate of the 8th Doctor? Could he have been in the Time War as well?

    Hell, maybe Hurt's Doctor started the Time War.
     
  6. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Four was sent to Skaro to prevent the Daleks from becoming, so, yea, more than one of them involved in the Time War. Eight, we only saw about an episode of screentime for him, since it was a TV movie with commercials for a 2 hour slot, and McCoy had at least 10-15 minutes, and McGann took a while to rise and then took awhile to acclimate. It was like any first adventure, the movie ended with him continuing his journeys. So, yes, he could've been summoned back to Gallifrey and become heavily involved, and then exhausted that life and Regenerated into Hurt, who again Regenerated into Eccelston who finally said "ENOUGH" and ended it. (Any one, two or all three could've been heavily involved)
     
  7. Noddy

    Noddy Captain

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    I'm not very well at ease with the notion the Hurt incarnation is disavowed because he killed the Time Lords. He's never denied that to anyone since the new series started.
     
  8. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    That is a great point. The only way it can work is, if what the Hurt Doctor did occured during the Time War, but not the genocide of the Time Lords and the Daleks.
     
  9. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    You can't dismiss the possibility that whatever he did (to make the eleventh Doctor not consider him the Doctor) had nothing to do with the Time War. :) Point is, right now we simply don't know anything. :)
     
  10. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Maybe DocHurt is the one who came up with the idea/method for the Final Sanction.
     
  11. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    It really makes no sense, I'm sure when Hurts Doctor came into being after Mcgann's regeneration he was the Doctor! Even TNOTD onscreen says 'John Hurt as the Doctor'. So even if he does something bad and his future incarnations don't want to call him the Doctor. He still WAS the Doctor and would be to others and therefor this bullshit that there are only ''11' Doctors is stupid.
     
  12. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Depends. Maybe John Hurt decides immediately after regenerating after his "ears and nose, not bad, liking the beard" routine to abandon the Doctor name. Or maybe Paul McGann renounced it just before regenerating, and therefore Hurt would never really have been a Doctor? Though I guess that would actually make McGann the one who broke the promise.
     
  13. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Is there any real possible way that this won't change established character things for either the Eighth or the Ninth Doctors, and not annoy us, too?
     
  14. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    There's nothing established, though. :)

    The last time we see the eighth Doctor the Time War hasn't happened yet. The first time we see the ninth Doctor, the Time War is over and the Doctor is in clean-up and PTSD mode. What happens in between? Could be anything, really.

    Hurt happens to fall in a hole that hasn't even been sketched out beyond throwaway references. Fans assume certain things must have happened and to whom them happened, but those are ultimately only fan assumptions.

    And, frankly, Doctor Who has been a series that has always played fast and loose with its own past. Moffat grew up at a time when "The Deadly Assassin" was considered by some fans to be an atrocity because it ran contrary to what "The War Games" revealed. If Moffat wants to do something as radical with Hurt as "The Deadly Assassin" was in its time, I salute him!
     
  15. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    ^ Did any post-McGann Doctor, before now, ever make reference to the specific numbered Doctor that they are?
    (I have never seen nuWho so I have no idea what they said)

    Explain. :confused:
     
  16. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Some saw that "The War Games" and the Pertwee era had made the Time Lords out to be god-like beings, while "The Deadly Assassin" depicted them as power-hungry politicians. The Doctor Who Appreciation Society tore it apart at the time because it got everything they thought they knew wrong. This essay may explain it better than I can.
     
  17. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Yes.
     
  18. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    Yeah Eleven's been refereed to as the eleventh Doctor a few times, though that's explainable if he doesn't consider Hurt a "Doctor". Trickier is Ten's comment to Sarah Jane that he's regenerated half a dozen times since they last saw each other.
     
  19. Workbee

    Workbee Commander Red Shirt

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    ^This can resolved if we take into account her appearance in the Five Doctors. Though it does involve a little bit of hand-waving.
     
  20. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

    If 10 remembers The Five Doctors, that's only 5 Regenerations if you don't include Hurt. If it's since 4 he's referring to, he has regenerated at least half a dozen times, so, it's still not an incorrect statement, since he didn't say "exactly" or "only" ;)

    Here in America, it's not uncommon to find people using Half a Dozen as an approximately 6 quantity