Why Star Trek Sucks

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by King Daniel Beyond, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Gowron's dishonor isn't because he invaded Cardassia. Gowron is relentlessly politicial. He took personal credit for the victory over the Romulans in Redemption. When he wanted to charge the Dominion on his own at the end of DS9 instead of waiting for the Federation and Romulans to protect their ships it was all about solidifying his position of power and putting himself in the position to take the credit.

    If there are any other honorable klingons than Worf in TNG, it's people like Kurn and Dax's revenge squad.

    When Ezri lectured Worf about her opinion of the Klingon Empire, she was just saying what twelve seasons of two series had shown to us.
     
  2. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    AFAICS Earth is still more equal than others in TNG Trek. Certainly more politically and militarily important.
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Perhaps I should summarize my point so you might better understand: Klingon honor really only makes sense in context; human concepts of honor are but an interesting counterpoint.
     
  4. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I understand your point, but what I'm saying is that Klingons do not live up to their own concept of honor. Kor committed acts humans would consider atrocities in his prime, but I would include him as honorable. For Klingons who are in politics, honor is basically a political talking point, like 'Family values' are to humans. They talk about honor and tell everybody their opponents have no honor, then they do whatever they want and don't worry about honor. The concept of honor is a tool for their political gain, when all they really care about is increasing their power base and the strength of their house.
     
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    ^Of course honor is political: it was a concept introduced to put Klingon society in order. Among the ways to increase one's honor is to gain adherents, growing one's house. The things we know that are honorable are their allegiances, their valour, and their adherence to ritual. Gowron, at the apex of the Klingon caste system, enjoys privileges in setting what is honorable. Indeed, it is to him that almost all allegiances should be focused, and I suspect no house could call him into account. Can Gowron do whatever he wants? That's hard to say. However, the only thing that he can do to dishonor himself is to lose: the prospect that his strategies might bring to defeats is what leads to his downfall. The burden of honor probably falls more heavily on his inferiors. Was there corruption in the Klingon system? Duras' challenge to the chancellorship points to corruption. Corruption, however, cannot be equated with the hypocrisy of the whole system. Certainly, problems with elections could not be an excuse for throwing out democracy. Are there things that Klingons could do that in your words, "humans would consider atrocities," yet still be considered honorable? The human needs to be taken out of the equation.
     
  6. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I remember this from The House of Quark--this is how weird it can get:

    Quark scuffles with a drunk Klingon in his bar, the Klingon falls on his on own knife and accidently kills himself.

    Later the Klingon's brother comes to question Quark;

    Quark is kidnapped by the dead Klingon's wife and taken to the Klingon home world. He tells a Klingon named Tumek what happened:

    It's like by this point Klingon culture was just loaded with cliches and stereotypical Klingon behavior.

    All this is about inheritance . and it all depends on whether he was killed in an accident because that was considered a very unusual circumstance. :shrug:
     
  7. Johnny Rico

    Johnny Rico Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ron Moore's BSG gave us that post-9/11 scenario.
     
  8. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Never got that impression. Journey To Babel shows a Federation of equals and the representative from Earth isn't even shown or mentioned. Sarek, a Vulcan, seems to hold a lot of sway in deciding what's to be done about Coridan.
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    This got me thinking. A lot of what makes DS9 in particular so poignant is that it at times it presents the post 9/11 world pretty accurately despite the fact the entire series pre-dates 9/11.

    The best example would be when the Breen attacked Earth. The general sense of gloom that lingers in the atmosphere of that episode practically echoes what it felt like on 9/11. And given that the episode aired two years before 9/11, I've always felt it to be a better analogy to that day than any of the obviously influenced by 9/11 stories shows and movies have done since.
     
  10. RandyS

    RandyS Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think It's more accurate to say that it ceased to be "Human-only" when the Federation was born. After that, it expanded to include the races from the other member worlds.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, it would cease to be once the Federation was formed. It would be absorbed into the Federation's own Starfleet. Certain traditions might be carried over into the new organization.
     
  12. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Even in TNG, We see "the Federation Flagship" in many way still being a Human/Earth ship. Human Captain, First Officer, Chief Engineer (all the first season engineers), both head Doctors. The ship itself built in the solar system.

    When Picard is temporarily replaced, it's with a Human. When Riker finally gets his own ship, his replacement is Human.

    With Earth being first among equals? Earth holds the governing body of the Federation, instead of that body being located on any of the other members home worlds.

    We actually don't know if the 150 plus members are in fact "equal." There could easily be some form of hierarchy among the membership, with the founding member having senior status.

    This has never been established.

    :)
     
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, actually, it has.
     
  14. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Earth is also the capital of the Federation.

    A president, even if from another world, has to preside on earth.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which means?
     
  16. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was referring to the Earth organization known as Starfleet ceasing to exist never being established at any point.

    Obviously Earth had a Starfleet before the Federation came into existence. I should have been clearer.


    :)
     
  17. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ And the Starfleet that Earth had, is not the same one that the Federation has. You only have to look at them to see that. It's obvious.
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    How so? It looks like the same Starfleet to me. It would certainly be odd for the producers to intend the prequel series to feature some other group called Starfleet Command.
     
  19. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    ^Functionally speaking, Earth Starfleet became UFP Starfleet. Although one ended and the other began, it may have been nothing more than a name change in the organizations rapid evolution.
     
  20. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Throw it into the mix of the "homo-sapiens only club" discussions.

    The article accused Trek (or the in universe storyline ) of being very human-centric .

    The author would have probably argued that having a majority human Starfleet, along with stationing the capital and government on earth, proved the point.

    You have a majority human Starfleet, Starfleet command is based on Earth, most of the ships names are earth history based. The capital is also based on earth and so is the government and Federation council.

    I just wonder how secure other alien members of the Fed would feel about that.

    I always had the impression that all Fed members had equal influence and presence, (I still do) but it does make you think when this is pointed out.

    When the Dominion War aired, and I was cheering for Starfleet to win, I automatically assumed that the officers and soldiers who were fighting and dying were human.