Why Not A Starfleet Ships Chaplain As A Main Character?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by Knight Templar, Oct 7, 2012.

  1. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People should ALWAYS have the choice what to believe as long as the y don't impose their belief system on others.
    But hopefully we will have global education on a level where everyone can make an informed decision on what to believe.
    And that will most likely to point of near certainty lead to naturalistic views of the universe without the need for god/s and other unfounded supernatural beliefs.
     
  2. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And that education will include the full range of choices, religious instruction, as well as the secular options.

    In all fairness, you wouldn't exclude one of the options in a public education environment, and then expect an individual to make an informed choice.
     
  3. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Education ABOUT relgions, sure. Kirk, Picard and other characters in the show were well versed in historical and cultural backgrounds.
    But education as in school and knowledge must be secular.
    As soon as people are aware of the other options and get some background information they are free to learn more about the individual relgious teachings from the religion itself.

    We don't really have to go into the topic of why religious teachings in schools is not the way to go, right?
     
  4. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So, have the school be required to advance (or "push") one of the options, ahead of the others? You know it's not entirely a secular world out there.

    Why would people have to seek a portion of their education outside of their school?

    Where better? Schools are places of education, growth, self-discovery. A student (hypothetically) might live in a small town, where education in her faith of choice is otherwise unavailable. She could take it in public school as an elective perhaps.
     
  5. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The problem with religion AS FACT in schools is, that it is a topic of faith. We can by definition not know what and if anything is true about them. There is no evidence at all.

    You are free to believe what you want, and education about what religions are out there and what their core beliefs are is fine, too.

    But the moment you teach something as fact you better have natural evidence for it.

    And a scientific education is the only one where that can be made sure.

    The moment you present evidenceless beliefs as equal to science you lose the seperation of state and church so a secular school is the only one that has validity.

    Not to mention, which faith do you plan to teach as fact? Christianity? Islam? Buddhism? Hinduism? Sikh? Cargo Cults?
    Either all of them or none....

    If you teach all of them you render every single one invalid, because they contradict each other.

    That's why we only teach things as fact in schools which we can in fact know, because they are observable and verifiable.
     
  6. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I remember a Klingon at a feast snarling about our human prejudices, even the term itself "human rights" was held up to contempt. By canon, in the 24th Century faith existed among the Klingons and the Bajorans who where invited into the Federation. Thus faith exist in the Trekverse
     
  7. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    We have lots of examples of other cultures having some Kind of religious faith.
    Bajorans don't really need faith to believe in their gods. They know the prophets exist and can even meet them: fly into the wormhole with an orb and you can be pretty sure to get an audience.
    They have faith in a prophet related afterlife however for which there is no evidence except in the case of Sisko.
     
  8. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    ^^^ Reminds me of HHGttG:
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A few years ago I hired a surgeon to operate on my ankle, this person had previously operated on multiple members of my family, and I had faith in the doctor's abilities.

    Faith means (among other definitions) possessing confidence and trust ... in God, or in a person or in a thing. My faith in God is a expression of my complete confidence and trust in Him.

    You seem to be wanting to use a narrow meaning of the term "faith." Kira has personally interacted with the Prophets, and subsequently she possessed "faith" in the Prophets. There no indication that her being in their presence increased or decreased her faith.

    If you have faith in your spouse, does this mean your spouse doesn't exist? If you trust in your friends, does this mean they don't exist? If you possess confidence in your doctor, does this make them a incompetent fool?

    Timelord Victorious, I travel to a far away land and happen upon a unique flower, and then continue on my way, eventually ending up in front of you. I tell you all about this flower, how it smelt, the sound the leaves made in the wind, what it looked like, even the taste of the blossoms. You then respond that you never experienced this flower yourself, and for that reason it doesn't exist.

    But in that far away land, the flower continues to sway in the breeze.

    :)
     
  10. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    ^^^ Nicely done. :techman:
     
  11. Timelord Victorious

    Timelord Victorious Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, obviously you don't define faith the same way I do.
    In a religious context faith means believing without evidence. Not talking about proof beyond doubt, just any evidence. There is none, so there is no reason for me to believe any of it. And extraordinary claims require a Bit more evidence than "an ancient book, written by people who hardly knew anything about how the natural world works, says so.

    You didn't go to this surgeon on faith. You had evidence that he was a competent doctor since your relatives had good experiences with him.
    If you had went to him, trusting he could operate on you well enough, without ever knowing if he really is a medical doctor after screwing up the rest of your family already, then I would call that faith.
    The way it went, you trusted him on good measurable evidence. You can Call it faith if course, but it is not what an atheist means when talkibg abour faith in god and I doubt you believe it the same thing.

    Your unique flower is different than god, too. I know flowers exist, what general properties they usually have and that there are probably many flower species that I have never Seen before since new ones get discovered all the time.
    So in this case I have reason to tentatively take your Word for it.
    Though I might ask you for a picture you might have taken or the location if I want to experience it myself.
    If you can't provide any, I will still accept as a likely true anecdote but can otherwise remain happily ignorant about the flower.

    Faith in a spouse has nothing to do with his/hers existance, but whether or not him/her cheating on their partner.

    Trust in friends is a property of friendship, otherwise they wouldn't be y friends. Again, has nothing to do with their existance.
     
  12. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    We've seen Counsellors but so far no chaplains, as far as I know, have been depicted in any incarnation of Trek. Seems to me like too much of a departure.

    Realistically, you have two options: depict an extant religion, or a fictional one. Neither prospect excites me. Depiction of an extant religion won't be able to get in-depth without courting more controversy than networks will sign off on; the blandness and superficiality that will (I think) inevitably result pushes it into "Why bother?" territory.

    On the other hand, a fictional religion seems no more interesting. Granted, you can get more in-depth, in all likelihood taking elements of real religions and cloaking them in enough 'fictionality' to deal with them in depth without provoking letter-writing campaigns. But the idea just doesn't excite me. The few depictions of spirituality in Trek that do exist have always seemed bland and uninteresting to me. It's always some reported personal difficulty; McAlien's duty dictates that he do X, but (gasp!) McAlien's religion forbids him to do X! And then we get some hellishly long shot of McAlien staring at a little statue or whatever with strings in the minor chords on the soundtrack and then... McAlien either does or doesn't do X. The controversy over doing which is entirely informed and never connects viscerally with the audience. Yawn, as far as I'm concerned. Obviously just my personal preference, but I'd rather we didn't bother doing that. It's worked well enough so far without that.
     
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You realize that Deep Space 9 portrayed a fictional religion, right?
     
  14. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, but not a Starfleet chaplain. Sorry if it wasn't clear that that's what I was referring to.
     
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ah. That's different. :)
     
  16. Star Wolf

    Star Wolf Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are we expecting anything more then Father Mulcahey or Shepard Book out of a Starfleet Chaplin?
     
  17. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe Reverend Eric Camden (Stephen Collins) from the show 7th Heaven would be a good model for the character.

    :)