Why No Romulan Ships?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Captain Clark Terrell, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. TheSubCommander

    TheSubCommander Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    This and the fact that if the Defiant used a Klingon Cloak, the Romulans would surely demand to be there to observe its use. Given that the Romulans and Klingons were enemies by that point, and the fact that Klingon cloaking technology may have diverged since the Klingons and Romulans became enemies, maybe the Klingons refused to allow a Klingon cloak to be observed by a Romulan for security reasons.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. And probably for good reason, as we saw in TNG "Unification" that a Klingon cloak allowed our heroes to penetrate to the very heart of the Romulan Star Empire and to linger there for several days unobserved!

    The jury is still out on who out of the usual suspects invented invisibility first, and when. Sure, it seems to come as news to our TOS heroes when the Romulans are first not-seen using it, but subsequently it sounds like invisibility is mundane and commonplace - and then comes ENT and shows it mundane and commonplace a century before the "introductory" TOS episode, in the hands of a variety of aliens and subsequently falling in the hands of both the Earthlings and the Klingons.

    Really, TOS "Balance of Terror" is the one hiccup in otherwise acceptable continuity, the piece that never fit the puzzle. Ships that appear out of nowhere and then disappear again are not news to our heroes in that episode - they witnessed such a thing happening back in "Charlie X" already.

    Certainly Romulans and Klingons go neck to neck in cloaking prowess in the TNG era adventures, so it would stand to reason that they would hesitate to have their ships maintained at a base frequented by the opposition... But possibly neither the Klingons nor the Romulans had any choice, as the former had lost their forward bases to the Dominion in the early stages of the war already, and the latter never appeared to have had any.

    Sure, TNG "Birthright" suggests that Romulan space is not too far from DS9, but we never hear any exact figures. And there's nothing explicit to indicate that Romulus and Bajor/Cardassia would be border neighbors or anything. Indeed, when the Dominion starts using Romulan space for attacks against the Federation-Klingon alliance, this is considered something of a "backstabbing" maneuver, and not just figuratively...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. doylem1

    doylem1 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    It could even be that despite the fact they were fighting on the same side, by nature the Romulans are a elusive and secretive race and although engaging in battle side by side with former foes, they may still want to try to keep their exact fleet figures under wraps, as to not expose and compromise their military strength post war. Giving them the illusion of being on a stronger footing than they may well be when discussing the spoils of war.
     
  4. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the reason is more easily explain diplomatically then technologically.

    To the best of my knowledge, we never get any true insight into who has a better cloak (Romulans or Klingons) though I think we could probably make a good argument for Romulans having a better cloak considering they are more interested in technological advancement then Klingons.

    However, the explanation, IMHO can be found in the TNG episodes: "The Pegasus". Based on that episode, the Treaty of Algeron expressly forbids the federation from developing or having cloaking technology and therefor they need permission from the Romula Empire to use it. In order to properly oversee that they aren't misusing it, doesn't it make the most sense for the Romulans to give them a cloak?

    As for "Why no Romulan Ships?" I think Dub's answer would be the one used, but frankly, I think the big explanation would frankly have been budget.

    Let's be honest, budget not being a concerned, we'd expect to see about a dozen ships around the station at any time, not one or two.
     
  5. wingsabre

    wingsabre Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    To get back on topic... I think it was indirectly explained. The Romulans were given a hospital base on one of Bajor's moon's. Since DS9 is at the mouth of the wormhole, we don't see Romulan ships as often because they are likely stationed near their hospital base. Instead of shore leave on the station, they can go to the planet. If a ship needs to be docked for repairs, then that ship goes to the station. It wasn't clear if the base was removed or the weapons were removed after the their blockade.

    I also would not be surprised if the Romulans were not around DS9 as much because they were fighting a different front. Since their systems were vulnerable to Breen weapons, and the Klingons were picking up a lot of slack for both the Federation and the Romulans, it would make sense that the Romulans would take defensive positions.

    If the Romulans were stationed near a Federation starbase, I assume Starbase 375 would be the best option. It's near the front lines, and Admiral Ross has an amicable relationship with the Romulans. Their cloaking technology also allows them to hide near the boarder, and serve as backup should the need arise.
     
  6. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What did the Federation get out of the Treaty of Algeron? They ceded a massive tactical advantage to the Romulans, so it must have been worth their while. Unless the Romulans were negotiating from a position of great strength, and could virtually dictate terms...
     
  7. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    It's not clear from cannon. The Treaty of Algeron was signed after the Tomed Incident of 2311. There are a couple of novels about the events surrounding the Tomed Incident, but nothing's ever talked about on screen. What's known from episodes like "The Pegasus" is that the treaty has helped maintain a fragile peace between the Federation and the Romulans for several decades.

    You might be onto something in saying that the Romulans had all the power in the negotiations. Depending on what happened, maybe the Federation had no choice but to allow the Romulans to keep their cloaking technology and abide by whatever terms were laid out for them, no matter how unfair or lopsided they might have been.

    --Sran
     
  8. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Romulans were the original inventors of the cloaking device. Besides they have greater finese and skill that your typical Klingon brute (and we got to see Martha Hackett in another too-short Trek role).

    The one thing that bothered me with Romulan ships was that we only ever saw the D'deridex-Class. We saw several Starfleet, three Klingon, three Cardassian, and three Dominion classes engaged in fighting, but only one Romulan (which never seemed to fair well in the battles either).
     
  9. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was a bit daft that Voyager never bothered to develop a cloak, which would have been really useful sneaking through the Delta Quadrant. It's not as if the Romulans would find out. The suggestion must be that the Federation really don't have much experience at all. They might know the basic theory, and have a few captured examples, but haven't been able to make them work in practice due to the treaty. The Pegasus attempt was clearly very, very secret.
     
  10. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    They may be 70,000 light-years from home, but its still illegal. They could have developed a phasing device, passed through planets and ships and phaser beams without taking any damage--plus a straight line is the shortest distance between two points :)
     
  11. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt they'd have had the knowledge to do that though, given the secrecy of Pressman's plan. Or the resources, the research capacity etc.
     
  12. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    The Borg assimiliated Romulans. I'm sure at least a few of them understood how to build and/or maintain a cloaking device. I don't know that they'd have knoweldge of something like a phasing cloak because that was classified, but a basic cloaking device should have been known throughout the Collective. That Janeway didn't at least ask Seven about it is surprising.

    --Sran
     
  13. E-DUB

    E-DUB Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I would have liked to have seen more classes of Romulan ships. I mean, withthe Klingons we had Ktingas, Vorchas, BOPs. But with the Rommies, it was always the Warbird. OK, and Vreenak's shuttle.
     
  14. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    We also had the Valdore from Nemesis.

    --Sran
     
  15. YJAGG

    YJAGG Commander Red Shirt

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    I agree between the whole Derna thing- and fighting on other fronts there is no reason for them to be too close to Bajor
     
  16. Richard Baker

    Richard Baker Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And the Valdore might have been just developed during the Dominion War, like the Sovereign class- designed to meet a need but not deployed in the fleets yet.
    As we saw in ST-Enterprise lots of races had clocking technology so the Borg probably had assimilated a number of ways of doing it. They never really bothered with it on their ships because they never cared if you saw them or not, when they showed up you were toast anyway. Voyager could have added a cloak if Janeway did not mind ignoring an Alpha Quadrant restriction but that would have made the trip home have a lot less drama to base stories on.
    I like the idea the it would have been too complicated to use a Klingon version of the Cloak on the Defiant due to the Treaty with the Romulans, since they wanted info and and were paranoid enough to have the best possible cloak technology...
     
  17. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always liked that they only seemed to have one ridiculously massive ship. There's something arrogant and complacent about it which seems very Romulan.

    Do we ever see a Warbird kill a Dominion ship? I can only remember them getting torn apart in the two Chintoka battles. Oh and in The Die is Cast.
     
  18. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^They weren't featured that much. I remember them only firing at random ships but never destroying anything. Their flagship was destroyed during the Battle of Cardassia that ended the war.

    --Sran
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Which, oddly enough, was what basically all ships in the Alpha Quadrant forces ever did.

    Only the two Defiants, the Klingon Birds of Prey and just possibly some Galaxy class ships were shown actually destroying enemy vessels. The latter did it by the old, cheap method of covering their targets in fireballs, after which the camera turned away and we never learned if the fireball did any real harm to the target. (Several episodes featuring attacks against DS9 proved that giant fireballs caused no harm to the station, and were in fact a sign of "shields holding"...)

    This is a rather odd VFX directing decision. I understand it is hugely expensive to show a dramatic loss such as those of the Majestic and the Sitak, so such might be sparsely used, and mostly on hero ships that the audience would care about. But fireball-style cheap deaths (now you see it, now you don't) of enemy vessels could have been prominently shown being scored by ships other than the Defiant or the Rotarran, yet it's virtually impossible to point out such kills in the battle scenes. It's only the heroes dying, not the villains.

    Timo Saloniemi