Why Khan?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by WarpFactorZ, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So...being Vulcan is being hetero? Was Nero gay for killing all the heteros? How about Kirk--wouldn't he be gay even though he wants Uhura? Well, Spock is. Why is everyone on the ship, the majority of them, human? Wouldn't that mean every character is gay?

    I think the analogy ruins Spock's character. He's completely human now? With the animal rage of Vulcan, he's now just like everyone else on the Enterprise? He would be rejecting one heritage of the other.

    This is about multiculturalism. This is about being a mixed child and not having to pick which part of your heritage that you belong to. I would love to see Star Trek embrace at least one gay character or story line. However, it's a macho universe. It treats women like crap and it means there's not a single gay person. Apparently, they found a cure or something. Very disappointing. Believe me, when I see the gay character, I'll see the gay character.
     
  2. Ssosmcin

    Ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I actually don't remember fanboys clamoring for a "black hat heavy" as much as Harve Bennett did. He needed the black hat. Fans, on the other hand, seemed to want the movies to reflect the best of the original series, which didn't always need a back hat. This isn't Star Wars or James Bond. Where was the black hat in City on the Edge of Forever? But TWOK was popular with fans and audiences, so nearly every film since has tried to emulate it. TWOK was the best and worst thing to happen to the Trek movies.

    TMP: I remember people clamoring for the characterizations they missed from TOS and wanting more action and fewer loving effetcs shots. I don't ever recall a huge uproar over a lack of villain.

    STIV: I actually also remember fans happy with this one, along with the general public. It was a lot like the original series during it's comedic periods. We may have bristled at the flitty way time travel was handled, but otherwise, it was great to have the general public and Trekkies on the same page for a change.

    STV: again, the clamor was for a film that didn't suck. The Black Hat heavy was Captain Klaa, who was one dimensional. All around the most interesting character was Sybok - who wasn't a villain.

    Star Trek doesn't need an arch villain. It needs a good story and engaging characters. You can have conflict without Dr. Evil driving the argument. If all we needed were bad guys, then everyone would love Shinzon, Ru'afo and Soran and the films they were in.
     
  3. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The wealth of Star Trek references and parodies in Family Guy stem from the fact that Seth MacFarlane is a huge Trekkie (TOS and TNG). It's also why the show is filled with 80s references, even as 'obscure' as The Greatest American Hero. It appeals to "us" -- i.e. the 35-50 demographic -- because we all share the same interests. We got the extremely subtle Khan reference when Montalban played the cow ("Even my beloved wiife!...") because of that. But I don't think you can extend that interest to today's general public.

    This is exactly my original point. Why reuse Khan and turn him into someone completely different than what we know? If you're going to pick someone from the prime timeline, there are numerous people to choose from. Hell, Gary Mitchell would be a better choice, because he's canon, has/had a rich backstory with Kirk, and that could make for better drama.

    Khan's appeal as a villain is that he was a superhuman focusing his superabilities to destroy ONE person, and his only normal quality -- his ego -- was his downfall.
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that bit. But they still weren't flaunting it as they did at the end once Spock had eased up on his emotional control.
    No.
    I think he's reached a similar point to the Spock of Wrath of Khan and beyond. A Spock who knows the value of emotion and doesn't fear or deny it - while still being Spock.
    Yes, it would be nice if Trek had a gay character. I disagree with you on their treatment of women, however.
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think so. The episode Space Seed is pretty popular and he had only met Kirk.
     
  6. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Commodore Commodore

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    TWoK already did that. While I loved that movie, the Khan from TWoK was barely recognizable as the same character from Space Seed (except, of course, for the obvious: that they had the same name and were played by the same guy).

    Honestly, there was really not much of the "Eugenic Superman bred to lead the world" aspect of Space Seed -- which was the most important plot point of that episode -- that was used in TWoK. Instead, they took the character of Khan and turned him into a broken man who has gone mad with revenge.
     
  7. Garak

    Garak Salty Dog Premium Member

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    I'm pretty sure Abrams wanted to do Khan so he could include the brilliant line "time to open up a Khan of whupass!" in his movie.

    Think how majestically that will roll off Cumberbatch's tongue. Like wiping your ass with silk, to coin a phrase.
     
  8. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, better Khan than, say, Bela Okmyx. Otherwise we'd have had "Star Trek II: A Piece of OUR Action!"
     
  9. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Why make Starbuck a woman? Why didn't Heath Ledger play the Joker exactly like Cesar Romero or Jack Nicholson? Why cast Lucy Liu as Dr. Watson?

    Sometimes it's just fun to take an old concept or character and put a new spin on it . . . .
     
  10. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Exactly. Speaking of interchanging actors and parts, I read about a run in London of a play based on Frankenstein and Benedict Cumberbatch and Jonny Lee Miller are/were each in it. Moreover, each night, one plays the doctor, the other the monster and then they switch for the next night. I'd buy a DVD of this production (especially if they included one performance of each).

    Oh, and I (as no doubt you) have no trouble enjoying both Sherlock and Elementary as two different, yet entertaining takes on the same characters, each of which is far removed from the original. Imagine if such an attitude could be prevalent among Trek fans. Oh wait--it is (well, for a lot of them, anyway).
     
  11. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    That play sounds wonderful!

    Unfortunately, now I'm going to spend the rest of the week imagining JLM in Sherlock and Cumby in Elementary. Thanks.
     
  12. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Stories can't help but be "about something," since they tell about human beings and their experiences.

    When writers become self-conscious about sending a message or setting up a moral they are telling tales for children.

    Star Trek will be a far better series of movies and TV shows if no writer ever again says to him/herself "what message am I attempting to reflect upon society?"

    That serves no real purpose other than a reach-around for folks who like to be flattered.
     
  13. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In principle I agree, but this isn't quite a comparable situation. There is no continuity aspect between the different shows you cite. Here, it's been made very clear that prior to 2233, the universe was the "prime" (TOS) one. Sure, the look of ships and technology change to suit budgets, but the people shouldn't. No one is going to switch genders. If Khan appears in this movie, he should be basically the guy we saw in Space Seed: a former middle eastern dictator who was ousted and exiled. He can't suddenly become a white British chap with an attitude to match his voice.
     
  14. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The "alternate/Prime universe" stuff is a fig leaf - they weren't really faithful to it in the first movie, and you can be sure that more and more will diverge with each successive movie.

    It's just a reboot, folks.
     
  15. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Bunk.

    Nobody gives a shit what happened before 2233. Really, no one gives a shit happen happens after either. They just want to be entertained. If that means making Khan a stuff British dude, that's what's Paramount does. If it means changing him to Kambatta Persis Snooki, they do that too.
     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Props for the imagery. :lol:
     
  17. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Despite the huge popularity of this movie, this was the one that caused a mass exodous of jaded, angry, older TOS fans from our club. They saw it as "the dumbing down of Star Trek" and were insulted by it. Then along came TNG - and they reckoned it vindicated their choice to jump ship.

    I'm not saying they were right, but it happened.
     
  18. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Just for fun, I tried looking up to see whether a DVD from that staging might be in the works. It seems there had been quite a bit of interest, but the necessary rights could not be secured, so an authorized DVD release doesn't look likely to be happening any time soon, if ever.

    http://ntlive.tumblr.com/post/27833520736/official-statement-re-frankenstein-dvd-bootleg

    Pity.
     
  19. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    He can if his sleeper ship was discovered by... Antosians. :techman:
     
  20. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If Cumberbatch is Khan, then just don't give me any explanations in the movie for why he's different than TOS Khan. He's Khan, and that's it. I can take it.

    (I've finally started catching up with "Sherlock" whenever I find it on. Cumberbatch's Holmes reminds me a lot Gregory House. The pace and direction of the episodes reminds me of the show, too.)

    Part of the joy of Trek for many was growing older with our heroes. Having Kirk and the others age just as the actors did set Trek characters apart from how most other action heroes are treated. Every Bond actor is on the clock, for example, and everyone knows it. Every now and then, the franchises are contemporized, too (like "Sherlock"). It's expected. By comparison, the Trek reboot almost came out of the blue and shocked many people. Some not in a good way.

    It's the way of franchises, and it finally happened to "Star Trek". Version 1.0 had a good shelf life. I doubt we'll ever seen Daniel Craig as Bond at age 62. I think it's unlikely we'll ever see Batman or Superman get their AARP cards in the mail, either. We may never even see Kirk grow old again.