Why Khan?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by WarpFactorZ, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They were long "ruined" before TNG got to them.

    "Klingon" seems to be their word for "moron," since virtually any time a Klingon was going to do something egregiously stupid he was likely to preface it with something like "We are Klingons!"

    Stupid like, say, every Klingon in TSFS...or just empty bluster and posturing like those in ST 4 and 5. Or a simplistic moustache-twirler like Chang.

    Perhaps Abrams will finally do something interesting enough with the bumpheads in this next film to set them up as major antagonists in the third movie.
     
  2. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Actually, I would wager the best-known antagonists to the general audience are the Klingons, followed closely by maybe the Borg. TWOK was 31 years ago -- its lasting impact on casual Trek fans, and even the general audience at the time, has long since waned. Of course, one could also argue that makes it ripe for a reboot.
     
  3. Lord Garth FOI

    Lord Garth FOI Commander Red Shirt

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    Nope
    If you peruse the genre sites like AInt it cool, latino-review and Screenrant, Star Trek II is clearly the casual Trek fans fav. It's the one Star Trek they like whether they be hard core Star Wars fans or Batfans. The guys who post I hate Star Trek but,..
     
  4. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The casual fan knows the Vulcan hand thing, Captain Kirk and Mr. (or Dr.) Spock, and the Klingons. That's it. The casual fan wants a popcorn flick. I would like to see Star Trek do something unique, to try something that isn't so safe. And doing a movie where a Khan-like villain threatens the universe, the Federation, Earth, or the Starship Enterprise, is boring. I don't want another villain with Khan's screen time. I want something fresh, but whenever the deviate from that, it's killed by this generation of fans. See the thread about Insurrection being "small potatoes, the stakes weren't high enough" in the other forum.
     
  5. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Like...

    * introducing us to Kirk's parents

    * pairing up Spock and Uhura

    * killing Amanda and blowing up Vulcan.
     
  6. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The first ten minutes are good, but Nero was as safe as you can get. I didn't say 2009 lacked any creative juices. But at the end of the day, it was successful because it was fun--a popcorn flick. I think it's middle-of-the-road in terms of story and not who they decided to kill off or having Spock going on a revenge tour. Those are the stakes and the major plot points. It's new Trek. Was it a risk? Yes. Do they need to be patted on the back for that? No. And here's why:

    Where are the voices of these characters? What did this movie say? What commentary was it attempting to reflect upon our society?

    So why do I say the first ten minutes are good? Because I care about these two characters that are on-screen. It's not cheap to show a man doing his duty and talking to his wife about why he has to sacrifice himself. Military families go through this every day. She accepts that, delivers the child, they interact as wife and husband, and then say goodbye. Nero, in that scene with Robau, is how I want him throughout the film. Get rid of his dialogue, let Prime Spock tell us who and why. Everything else we can get from him just being angry. Don't say a word. Be ominous. That's taking a chance in storytelling. Let the menace be something they have to work around without a view screen.

    Star Trek introduces us to our villains often. We sit down and have meals with them. We talk and talk and talk and talk. Well, we've talked to Nero before. We've seen him as Khan, Kruge, Chang, Soran, and Shinzon. I'm tired of every menace being angry and seeking revenge. His motivation makes no sense. So do without him for a movie. Let these guys prove their mettle by not responding to anything but the ship. That would've been creatively, a risk.
     
  7. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    And the critics and fanboys would still pounce and say, "So where's the 'black hat' heavy?", like they did with TMP, ST IV and ST V. :rommie:
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    As for the OP, Khan is a character, not a situation. The whole point of the reboot was to put familiar Trek characters in new situations. Khan still has his Eugenics Wars backstory, which is more than enough reason to be pissed off at the peoples of Earth. Overthrown and exiled to space, now back for revenge.

    Spock came out of the closet, TOS analogy-style. I'm amazed often it zooms over the heads of fans of the original show! It was much more personal than "save the whales" or "the Berlin wall falls in space," but I'd say it's a very important message nontheless.
     
  9. HaventGotALife

    HaventGotALife Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There are no gay Star Trek characters. Believe me, any nod in that direction was far-fetched and too well hidden. He is a child of two worlds. He lives in both. His parents raised him to be a child of two distinct cultures. The first Spock saw only the Vulcan way. Can you imagine 18-year-old Leonard Nimoy asking his mother if it was okay to take the Kholinar? It is contrasted by Kirk lacking a father and the differences in their lives because of it. Who saves Kirk? Dad. And don't ever mention Spock's mom, he will go ape.

    They ruined this by going too far with Sarek. "I married your mother because I loved her." and "Do not try to." He can be angry? That's a can of worms. So Spock goes on his little vendetta defeating the purpose of the upbringing and the entire story around it. This is run-of-the-mill storytelling.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree.

    There are times as a parent that you simply have to be brutally honest with your kids. I saw Sarek being brutally honest with Spock twice in the film. As a parent I appreciated that Sarek shared with his son that the world they inhabit isn't perfect.

    Asa far as Khan goes, why not?
     
  11. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    This is zooming over my head. Since "to come out of the closet" is chiefly understood as "to reveal oneself as gay," I'm not getting this. Could you elaborate, please.
     
  12. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair, Family Guy continually makes TWOK themed jokes in their episodes, rannging from scene reenactments, clips of footage from the movie, and at one point they even had Ricardo Montalban voice a character in an episode, with a very subtle TWOK reference. So TWOK is still well-known to the general public, even if it's that thing Family Guy is always doing jokes about.

    That said, I agree I don't get why eevryone is clamouring to get Khan into an Abrams movie. Hell, there have been discussions about it going back to before XI was released, and according to Bad Robot, an end scene featuring the Botany Bay was proposed for XI.

    Khan is from one episode and one movie. The most popular movie, yes, but still just one. The rest of the TOS movies don't even bother to mention him by name, and since TWOK Khan has only been mentioned a handful of times in the shows. His story is told, the only ground left to cover was his life in the 20th century and his time on Ceti Alpha V, both of which have been covered in the novels. And in the case of Ceti Alpha V, a comic series also covers that.

    He is by no means Star Trek's primary villain. Ask any random dude on the street "who are the bad guys in Star Trek?" their answers are going to be Klingons, Romulans, or Borg.
     
  13. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Regarding your last sentence, I'd like to think so, but I seriously doubt it. When have Klingons ever really been "something interesting?"

    Kirk v. Kor in "Errand of Mercy" needed to happen more often. If Kor had been established as a returning foil to Kirk (maybe two episodes a season), through him, the Klingons would've become more multi-dimensional antagonists. Kirk would've had his Joker or Moriarty. Not every conflict would've ended with "kill the Klingon villain" as it did in the movies.

    The Klingons suffered from no one character who personified them and became a burr under Kirk's saddle. So, we're left with Khan being the closest individual we can say is Kirk's Joker, Lex Luthor, or Moriarty, even though it's a strained comparison at best.

    Bottom line, the Klingons were always poorly utilized. To me, it's one of the most disappointing parts of Trek.
     
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    What is with all the Klingon hate around here anyway? To me, some of Trek's most compelling and memorable characters are Klingons.
     
  15. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There were some good Klingon characters in TNG and DS9. I wish at least one character that strong had been estabilshed in TOS. I guess part of the problem was the series didn't run long enough for that to happen. But look at how the Klingons were used in TOS movies. Pitiful:
    -- In TMP, they didn't even have names and are out in the first five minutes. Left one wondering, "why even use them?"
    -- TSFS, vile villains, nothing deeper than that.
    -- TVH, an interesting and compelling speech by John Schuck presenting the Klingon point of view that could've portended the story in STV. (No peace while Kirk lives.)
    -- TFF, it didn't. The thought was dropped, and instead, we get some Klingon goofball in the story.
    -- TUC, a better and more nuanced job using them, but it was the last go-round, too. Too little, too late. And, imagine if it had been Kor meeting up with Kirk on last time, instead of Chang, especially if Kor and Kirk had had more of a history in TOS.

    Just my opinion.
     
  16. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Commodore Commodore

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    I liked Chang a lot, and felt he was a villain with whom I could actually sympathize (a little) -- at least I could feel a little sympathy for his cause. I think Kirk felt the same way, even though Chang wanted Kirk dead.
     
  17. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Chang was "acceptable." But maybe the fanboy in me thinks it would've been glorious if John Colicos had reprised Kor for that role and enhanced his backstory with Kirk. Kirk and Chang had no history. When Chang meets him, he says, "I've always wanted to meet you, captain." It would've been very interesting to see how Kirk and Kor would've gotten on with each other.
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    No, Spock isn't gay, but his story is a coming out allegory - using emotions.

    Spock is more emotional than other Vulcans. He tries to hide it his whole life. Spock has a secret inappropriate relationship with a student, analogous to a closeted homosexual in a relationship. After Vulcan is destroyed he comes out to his father, saying he has these emotions and can no longer pretend otherwise. Sarek accepts it, tells Spock his mother would have told him not to try and hide it and tells Spock he's grateful for him. Then we see "out" Spock saying an intimate goodbye to Uhura in front of everyone and later telling Kirk what he thinks should happen to Nero.
     
  19. SalvorHardin

    SalvorHardin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock's relationship with Uhura is not secret.
    If it was secret he would not be worried about appearing to practise favoritism by assigning her to the Enterprise. It would just be an instructor giving the best student the best assignment, to everyone's eyes.
    And since it's not a secret and none of them has any consequences that we can see on their career, I assume it's not considered inappropriate either.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This.