Why is the Federation so dumb?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Jared, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Jared

    Jared Commodore Commodore

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    Ok so I'm rewatching "Pegasus" from TNG and wondering why...WHY would the Federation agree to a treaty where they aren't allowed to explore the possibility and technology of cloaking? This seems like a huge mistake. At the time they knew the Romulans had it, why would they want a potential enemy to have a huge advantage and not give themselves that advantage as well? It is weird.....

    Here is a Memory Alpha link to the Treaty of Algeron that set up the Neutral Zone and outlined that the Federation couldn't use cloaking devices.
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

    Anyone have any ideas?
     
  2. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    This may sound a bit Roddenberrian of me, but I don't think even without the treaty, that cloaking technology is something the Federation would seek anyway. It's dishonest trickery, and that's not how the Federation works.

    Of course there will always be elements within the Federation (Pressman & Co.) who would seek it regardless of the treaty, because that's just how those kinds of people work.
     
  3. Herkimer Jitty

    Herkimer Jitty Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Maybe it forces the Romulans to disarm the type of weapon they used in Balance of Terror. Basically, "You give up your Starbase-killing weapons, and we won't use cloaking devices."
     
  4. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It must've been a means of securing peace. The Federation and the Romulans could have been building up towards war, which was only prevented by the Treaty of Algeron. The UFP gave up cloaking research, perhaps the Romulans gave up something as well.

    One thing I don't understand is why no one developed the phasing side of the phasing-cloak. Something doesn't need to be invisible to be intangible.
     
  5. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I agree with the original poster. I don't see thats its credible and realistic for the Federation to agree to not ever create or investigate a cloaking device.
    Surely the Romulans have violated any agreements by their behaviour in several episodes in TNG. Their attempted invasion of Vulcan.
    If war broke out between the Federation and Romulus would the Federation still agree to the treaty while their ships were being wiped out by cloaked Romulan ships?
    I agree Spock and Kirk behaved badly in 'The Enterprise Incident' but thats the Cold War for you.
     
  6. C.E. Evans

    C.E. Evans Admiral Admiral

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    Basically this.

    We don't know what the Romulans gave up, though, but apparently the Federation not pursuing cloaking technology has maintained peace (albeit at times tenuous) with the Romulans.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The Romulans appear to be quite willing to sign similarly hobbling treaties - they agreed not to develop polaric ion weapons ("Time and Again") and steered clear of subspace weapons, too (ST:INS). It also appears they never developed metagenic weapons, even though their know-how must have been decades or centuries ahead that of the Cardassians ("Chain of Command").

    The Trek universe is full of superweapons. Just like in the real world, those are usually the most powerful and effective when not used - and thus the most cost-effective when not built in the first place.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. not

    not Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Perhaps, the art of politics? Ultimately, any treaties signed have a purpose and the Federation found it in not seeking cloaking technology. A deal is sometimes what you don’t get too.
     
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, so the story goes, Roddenberry said the Federation shouldn't have any cloaking devices because "they're peaceful explorers and have nothing to hide."

    Although, we saw in AGT that with the Romulans defeated by the Klingons the Federation were free to develop claoking technology and indeed the Enterprise had a claoking device.
     
  10. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    And in "The Pegasus", we saw that even without the Romulans gone, the Federation were free to develop cloaking technology and indeed the Enterprise had a cloaking device...

    They just couldn't admit to it in public. (Except that in the episode, they did, and apparently there was no ill effect.)

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  11. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The treaty was stated as "keeping the peace" and given the mindset of the Federation in that time, the same one that kept giving concessions to the Cardassians even though they were actively violating the treaty there, I think the Federation's policy then -was- appeasement.
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...And seemed to be working pretty well.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. The Librarian

    The Librarian Commodore Commodore

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    I know, I hate all that appeasement of the Cardassians, with those treaties where both sides gave up stuff that they claimed. Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah... so what if they don't honor it, keep plotting to sieze disputed systems like Minos Korva and actively terrorize your colonists to the point where they start fighting to survive. Join with our Cardassian neighbors to stomp the foot of those colonist's faces for daring to not quietly be oppressed!

    At least they won't do anything like join a totalitarian alliance and instigate the largest war in Federation history!
     
  15. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    it's hard to say without knowing what the Romulans gave up, and knowing how the war was going. If the UFP was losing or it was basically a stalemate, the treaty might have seemed like a good idea.
     
  16. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't the last time the Romulans had a cloaking advantage over the Federation that launched an unprovoked attack that destroyed multiple federation outposts and all but declared war on the Federation hell the only thing that probably stoped said potential war was Kirk chasing them down into the Neutral Zone, so why the hell should the federation not try to steal one of their cloaking devices to remove that advantage especially since this one doesn't have the motion sensor flaw.

    You mean the ones the blow holes in the space time continuum and would be just as likely to kill the Romulans as well as their enemies becuase their unstable.

    1) The Romulans didn't sign the Khitomer Accords the Klingons did.

    2) They were banned becuase they were unpredictable not becuase they were destructive, meaning much like polaric ion weapons they can burn them as well as their enemy

    which is probable yet another weapon that could burn the side that uses it as well as the target

    The Dominion War says otherwise.

    except the Cardassians knew the federation wouldn't oppress the crap out of their colonists while they were free to oppress the crap out of their's.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    The treaty did seem to prevent an all-out war very efficiently - even the Minos Korva thing was heavily dependent on the Cardassians believing it would not result in a war.

    As for joining totalitarian alliances, the Feds really shouldn't be the ones to speak. Or perhaps you were indeed referring to their longstanding alliance with the Klingons, and their instigating the war with the Dominion?

    It would be interesting to learn what sort of treaties the Feds signed with the Klingons. Supposedly, the end of the Cold War with them led to the discontinuation of a Neutral Zone rather than the erection of one. Were there technology limitation talks? Territorial exchanges? Defining of spheres of influence?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. LobsterAfternoon

    LobsterAfternoon Commander Red Shirt

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    While we don't know everything, we do know that Federation ships were allowed to inspect Klingon ships in Fed space for health department type stuff.
     
  19. JessDD

    JessDD Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Were Klingon ships even allowed to cloak in Federation space?
     
  20. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Never heard anything otherwise. Certainly they had no qualms about doing it.