why is star trek original series disliked

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by tmosler, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. tmosler

    tmosler Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    After reading many fourms on tos i am confused at the negativity toward the show. As much as i like tng and for the most part ds9 tos was always my favorite. Most of the negativity revolves around it being cheesy,dated, and goofy which i can see in some episodes (the naked time and this side of paridise ) but for me this makes it even more enjoyable. Also in addition to the new remastered effects the character interaction between spock, mcoy, and kirk and more focus on exploration then tng makes it my favorite star trek show. Lastly there was lots more action then tng ever had and i feel it had the best humor which for the most part other trek series failed at. You can comment on whether you like the show and why below
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  2. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    ^I love TOS for many of the reasons you mentioned.

    I feel that many people who dislike TOS are looking at the show through their modern, jaded eyes and views. When you look at the show in relation to what else was on TV at that time in the 60's, it is one of the greatest shows of all time.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I love TOS but taste is formed by personality. People keep telling me how brilliant Deep Space Nine is, but I just don't see it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  4. Takeru

    Takeru Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't really care for TOS, I don't dislike it as a whole, there are some episodes I genuinely like but there are also elements of the show I don't like at all, I despise McCoy for example, I understand he's supposed to be the emotional one of the main trio but being emotional doesn't mean you have to act like a racist hick. I don't remember specific examples but too many times Spock made a suggestion that he explained logically and that really seemed to be the best way out of the situation they were in. McCoy's reaction can be summed up with "You emotionless, cold-blooded monster, you're worse than Hitler!". It was always personal with MCCoy, he attacked Spock, not his opinions, he ruins a lot of episodes for me.

    I also don't think Star Trek was as smart as some fans (and apparently Roddenberry himself) seemed to believe, the crew of the Enterprise and human values were always shown to be right and "good", an alien society with alien behavior shows up? Expect them to be fixed by Kirk at the end of the episode. And the often cited allegories to 60s problems were so obvious and on the nose they make me groan, like the "Racism is stupid" episode with the black/white aliens.
     
  5. bbailey861

    bbailey861 Admiral Premium Member

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    I love TOS. I grew up in the 60's, so I don't have a hangup about the 'dated' aspect of the show. The themes are just as relevant today as they were then. More so, perhaps - just turn on the news channel.
     
  6. Hambone

    Hambone Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the introduction to his book "The Nitpicker's Guide for Classic Trekkers", Phil Farrand makes the following observations:

    It really was a miracle that Star Trek ever got on the air in the first place. When you recall the TV landscape of the mid-1960's you had westerns, comedies, westerns, variety shows, westerns, cold war spy shows and westerns. There was nothing even remotely like Star Trek on the air (with the possible exception of Batman) and that includes Lost in Space, which despite its claim to be "family" science fiction was actually a children's show.

    By 1987, the groundwork had already been laid for a new series. Because of the series' history through TOS, TAS and the movies, TNG should have been better than it was. But it too found its footing eventually. But without TOS there would have been no spin-offs or movies, and by protracted thought, probably no Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, Farscape, and so on. I really believe that. Even if those shows had managed to exist without TOS they would have been very, very different. If Star Trek took its inspiration from Forbidden Planet, then those other shows were a logical extension.

    Was TOS heavy-handed in its delivery of morality plays? Sometimes. Was it corny or over-acted? Occasionally. Were the sets, costumes and effects sometimes inferior? Certainly. But TOS had the advantage of being there first, and of being interesting. Even the "dogs" (Spock's Brain, The Way to Eden, etc.) at least had good storylines. Who knows, with a little more time and polish and a few re-writes, Spock's Brain might have been one of TOS' best stories. A better title would definitely have helped!

    My original point is, TOS must be viewed through 1960s eyes in order to be appreciated.
     
  7. Kinokima

    Kinokima Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    He doesn't act like a racist hick at all. McCoy is awesome and the heart of the trio. As for his barbs against Spock, it was banter and Spock gave back as good as he got (which was actually very popular at the time. Fans wrote in and wanted more of it). Okay sometimes they argued for real but deep down McCoy and Spock cared about and respected each other. Their relationship was the typical "I can't admit that I like you". But I digress;


    Anyways the above is the perfect example that some fans can't look at things from the context of when it was written. They judge the writing, characters, and special effects from today's standards.

    They don't understand that the things they watch today will probably be considered politically incorrect, cheesy, and dated in 40+ years too.

    Normally I wouldn't use TV tropes as an example but I think this is the perfect one to describe negative reaction against the original Star Trek

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny
     
  8. tmosler

    tmosler Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I just thought of 2 more reasons i like tos more then all the other series. First reason is i know some trek fans who hate the music but i think it fits in quite good. Also there is almost no technobabble (you never heard scotty say something like "if we were to vary the phase harmonics by adjusting the frequency of the problem, it might super nova into itself with transdemensimal energy that we could break down into compential derivations" Scotty just got to work!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  9. mlk

    mlk Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I simply don't think it has aged well. The Tos movies are all great though
     
  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    I grew up with TNG, and loved it at the time.... but now I find it virtually unwatchable. It's aged terribly. The morals are trite. The acting and direction are incredibly poor. It's frequently dull as ditchwater. TOS, on the other hand is dated and cheesy but it's fun. And it's datedness and cheese just makes it more so. It's the characters (even though I frequenty want to slap McCoy when he gets irrational, and Grabby Kirk needs a kick in the balls every once in a while), their interactions, and the adventure that I love.
     
  11. marksound

    marksound Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the 1960s all tv shows were cheesy and goofy. Everything about 60s pop culture was cheesy and goofy.

    Except for the stuff that was awesome. :lol:
     
  12. tmosler

    tmosler Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I know exactly how you feel. If you had asked me a 2 years ago I would have said it was my favorite star trek show. but now after watching the series on netflix i can barley watch it for all the reasons you listed above. hopefuly the new blu ray releases will help my opinion of it. I think the original series has aged much better then tng.
     
  13. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    One, he's nothing of the sort.

    Two, Spock relentlessly insulted the human race throughout all three seasons of TOS in manner most would see as racist. However, because Spock is the "outsider" amongst humans, some observers develop politically selective glasses through which the series is analyzed.


    Every storry does not require a multi-episode arc.

    Oh, and did you think the TNG episode with Riker's romance with the androgynous alien was subtle in its sociopolital message? That was a sledgehammer strapped with a grenade in Star Trek trappings.

    How about the suicide of Yassim in DS9's "Rocks and Shoals?" Gee, like the source for that death was missed by anyone.
     
  14. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    Being who I am I'd reply that TOS and it's characters were so cheesy that it was pulled out of retirement in order to reboot the franchise after the disaster that was the TNG movies. ;)

    But seriously, I enjoyed the TOS for what it was. They did a damn good job with the puny budget they had and watching it again remastered with updated effects is a real treat. And I still say as a whole that most of their movies were heads and shoulders about the TNG ones with the exception of First Contact.

    TNG was a show I enjoyed during its run but hasn't kept the same interest for me as the years went on. It was too preachy its first few seasons and after finally hitting its stride in seasons 3 and 4 started to play it way too safe the rest of the way. That's probably why I enjoy DS9 so much. It was the anti-TNG show.:techman:
     
  15. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    Being someone that grew up in the 80s I'd say my era beats the 60s hands down when it comes to pure cheese. Looking back at the flock of sea gulls hair, parachute pants and glam rock I'd say we even managed to beat the 70s and their bell bottoms.:lol:
     
  16. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    I have always hated the charge of "cheesy" and "campy" against Star Trek. Yes, there are occasional elements of those in the show, but they are occasional and minor. They were not intentional and/or pervasive aspects of the show as a whole.

    I still think it is one of the very best SF shows of all time and it remains my overall favourite series. I certainly prefer it over anything else that followed in its name even though I have enjoyed a decent portion of TNG.

    One big thing I love about TOS was its vision. I don't mean the humanistic ideal that most seem to focus on. I mean its vision to dare to deal with big ideas despite being hampered by constraints in time and resources. It was effectively doing a mini science fiction movie every week at a time when the resources were barely suitable to the task. But they did it anyway and pulled it off repeatedly with incredible creativity. Something like TOS deserved the equivalent resources of a feature film, but that was impossible on a television production budget (even today) and yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

    I don't care how many people might laugh and deride and dismiss TOS because in my eyes many of those individuals seem blinded by lots of flash and polish. But TOS had substance that a lot of film and television SF lacks today as much as back in the days.

    TOS might also be resented on another level: by being first. The spinoffs owe their existence to it and yet none of the spinoffs to date have managed to eclipse TOS in the way it continues to resonate in the greater collective consciousness, and in the scientific community. TNG briefly eclipsed TOS for a few years when it was in production, but once that time was over the spotlight went back to the original. DS9, VOY and ENT will never be remembered or resonate as the original did and continues to do. I think TNG remains the most successful spinoff overall, but it too is also overshadowed by TOS. Although anything is possible I seriously doubt we will see a TNG reboot of any kind or even a return to the TNG era should Star Trek return to television. But they did reboot TOS (much as I loathe the way they did so) and I suspect it will be rebooted yet again when Abrams' tenure is done.

    Star Trek TOS greatly influenced me just as it has greatly influenced many people. It helped define what I look for in entertainment and in storytelling. It came along at just the right time to click with the right generation who would "get it." It wasn't the first effort to make smart science fiction, but it was arguably the most successful. Perhaps not in its initial debut, but certainly in the following years. The show grew more popular in syndicated reruns during the 1970s than when it originally aired. Something in it was reaching that generation of viewers.

    And here we are still discussing and debating it going on five decades later.

    I loved Star Trek in the dark days of the '70s when it wasn't yet recognized for what it was even by those who owned it and would later learn to exploit it. I wasn't deterred by the naysayers then and I won't be put off by any new generation of naysayers either.
     
  17. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

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    Fantastic post. :techman:
     
  18. gomtuu20

    gomtuu20 Commander Red Shirt

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    Well said.
     
  19. gomtuu20

    gomtuu20 Commander Red Shirt

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    When it was announced that TNG would be coming out, many people laughed at Roddenberry. They said he just could not catch lightening in a bottle twice. No one could even concieve of Trek with Kirk, Spock and McCoy. No one could understand why anyone would even try. The conventional wisdom was also that Trek could not survive without the chemisty of the original actors. For a while, they seemed to be proven right. While there were some great moments in the first two seasons, most of the episodes were pretty lame.

    With a few notable exceptions (like "Heart of Glory"), the only character that had any development was Wesley Crusher, the most annoying character. It took a full two years for TNG to find its footing. IF TOS FANS (like me) HAD NOT EMBRACED TNG EARLY ON, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE SURVIVED PAST ITS FIRST TWO SEASONS. TOS fans were the only ones watching for a while. They formed the ratings core the show needed to survive until it could find its footing in the third season.

    TNG would have never gotten on the air if TOS had not been so wildly popular.

    Nothing in the format of TNG is orignal. The Enterprise D is mearly an update of the orignal. The transporter, phasers, etc., etc., etc. were all from the orignal show. More importantly, the most important concepts of TNG were lifted directly from TOS. The basic format of a non-human character commenting on humanity is critical to the shows' success. The idea of a top-notch crew in the flagship of the fleet exploring the unknown (something that is missing in DS9) is all from TOS. TNG was basically a continuation of TOS in my mind.

    Sure the TOS had a few stinkers, but at least they never did a clip show! May I just point out "Shades of Gray"? Even with the decline in TOS season three, most of those episodes are still far superior to the first two seasons of TNG.

    Trek fans disrespecting TOS is unmerited, shortsighted and ignorant.
     
  20. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ This. :bolian:

    I've long come to the view that some people just can't get their heads around the 1960s styling of it, and would probably have the same problem with any show from that era. TOS is best watched in the same mindset as one watches the Adam West version of Batman. Both have got a campy sensibility that they never try to shy away from, but that's part of their charm. It certainly isn't a detraction. :)