Why is Profit and Lace considered so bad?

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by GalaxyX, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This episode seems to be standard Ferengi fare, with the inclusion of a very flamboyant Ferengi cross-dressing scene.

    I expected it to be atrocious considering everyone hates it. It wasn't amazing, but is was a decent watch.

    So what is it that people hate about it?
     
  2. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Some people will hate it just because it is a Ferengi episodes and others will dislike it because it isn't very good.

    Going by what those involved have said they seem to blame the episode's problems on that it was stuck between being serious and funny. I haven't seen it for a while so I'm not sure I agree or not. However, I do know I felt it was a bit of a meh episode, though in terms of that season I associate "Time's Orphan" as been the worst episode.
     
  3. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    1. It brought all the most annoying characters in the series together in the same place.
    2. It was poorly plotted, driven by a lot of contrived circumstances.
    3. The comic timing of the comedy scenes was completely off.
    4. Its commentary on gender relationships is entirely based on shallow cliches.
    5. It made no sense. Moogie is the only intelligent woman they can find on the entire planet, and a brief conversation with her is enough to convince a businessman of things that should have been obvious to him from the beginning, and convincing this one businessman is enough to instantly and completely change the culture of the entire planet.
     
  4. Drusilla

    Drusilla Ensign Red Shirt

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    I LIKE Ferengi episodes, normally. But Profit and Lace was awful.

    The brilliant female "insights" are reduced to superficial suggestions about appearance. Quark isn't a "woman" until he can successfully mince around in high heels and talk in a breathy voice. Not to mention turning Nilva's attempted sexual assault into a joke ("Ha! Rape!").

    Then in the end Quark learns nothing from the experience. It's a godawful episode all around.
     
  5. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know we like to see character development, Quark not learning anything significant from his experience is probably the most realistic part of the episode.
     
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    It's just not good. Putting one of your characters in drag for laughs should have gone out with Milton Berle.
     
  7. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    I don't normally post in the DS9 forum but, I saw this and felt the need to respond.

    First of all, I don't understand how this is a serious question, because it's pretty darn obvious why the episode is so bad considering it's pretty demeaning to not only women (Oh, look, they're all controlled by their emotions and hormones!) but to people with real gender-identity disorders.

    And, for me, as someone who tends to get very nitpicky about stuff it opens a LOT of questions regarding surgical techniques in the 24c. We can probably assume off the bat Quark didn't have "everything" done if you get my drift, but one thing he does have done is has ears shrunken to fit the female look for his species.

    Now, in all of the years of Trek by that point what do we know about Ferengi males and their ears?

    Doesn't it strike you as very, very odd that Quark would be so willing to have his most sexually sensitive organs REMOVED/reduced in size? And then what are they replaced with when he goes back?

    It's easy to think of this as being makeup on an actor, but Trek often forgot at times that these things are actual parts of a creature's body and in Quark's case his ears are a very sensitive and male-centric part of his body. Sure, he likely has genitals like most bipedal species in Trek seem to (since he seemed able to perform with females of other species) but we know his ears are where his big "g-spot" is, so to speak. And he just lets them get lopped off.

    That one tiny problem in a huge problem of an episode that pretty much makes fun of people with gender identity disorders and reduces females to being "controlled by their hormones' given how Quark acts in most of the episode.

    The episode is degrading on so many levels and this is coming from a straight man with no sexual identity issues.
     
  8. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps you found it decent because you were expecting it to be atrocious. So your expectations were low to begin with, conversely people can go into an episode/film with rave reviews and came away dissapointed.
     
  9. doctorfoto

    doctorfoto Commodore Commodore

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    On paper, this SHOULD be at least a decent episode overall. The events that occur in this episode ultimately have HUGE repercussions for the Ferengi Alliance, a major player in the Alpha Quadrant and of course on the show.

    Think about it. The Ferengi have for thousands of years forbidden women from having equal rights as men. They can’t leave the home, do business, even speak directly to men. Now within a couple of years, the influence of Ishka has changed that, to the point that the leader of the Ferengi has been ousted from office by the Ferengi Alliance.

    So the deposed Grand Nagus and Ishka arrive on Quark’s doorstep to ask for his help - again. (You would think that the Nagus would have other options, but Ishka’s with him so I guess I’ll go with it.) Together, our heroes hatch a scheme to reinstate Zek by convincing Ferenginar’s big business CEOs that these new philosophies are RIGHT about women. Again, this is big. This is a HUGE change for the Alliance or any species for that matter, but especially the Ferengi Alliance. If something like this were happening to the Klingons this would be a milestone. But in the very least this has the potential of being a pretty good Ferengi episode.

    But no. It all goes south from here. Ishka has a 'comical' heart attack (?) arguing with Quark. Somehow the rest convince Bashir to spend the better part of his Starfleet day surgically altering Quark to make him a woman …then poor Armin Shimerman has to parade around like an idiot for the rest of the episode. Watching him crying “like a woman” with all his crazy female hormone injections, having him ask if he’s pretty, hearing him say things like “All these facts and figures… it’s just too much to remember.”, watching him literally chased around the room by the Ferengi CEO Nilva, and culminating the “comedy” by having him actually exposing his boobs to the unconvinced Brunt and horny Nilva (which somehow, inexplicably THAT is what will initiate this sea change of Ferengi Equal Rights for Women.) It’s all just too much. I honestly cannot see how this episode can’t be insulting to women, to transgenders, to cross-dressers, and possibly to Ferengi. It’s like the writers all took a day off and turned the show over to the future Enterprise writing staff. :p

    Seriously though, had the show just let Ishka handle the negotiations and kept out all the Quark-in-drag antics, it would have been a considerably better episode which still could have contained several plot twists and comedy moments. Leaving the Ferengi woman out of the episode about equal rights for Ferengi women just doesn’t make any sense to me - especially since Ishka more than proved herself as capable in the previous episodes.

    Another thing I don’t understand is that at the beginning of the episode, it was established that Zek had ALREADY granted these rights to women. Ferengi females were ALREADY running around clothed, purchasing, trading and contributing to the economy PRIOR to Zek’s arrival on the station. So much in fact that it caused the entire planetary communications grid to shut down all over the Alliance. (and how were they able to contact all the FCA Commissioners in the next scene?). Anyway, if all this had taken place already… WHY did they need to send these commissioners all the way to the station for Ishka to convince them females with equal rights were a good thing?

    Quark’s motivations are all wrong here too. Prior to and following this episode, Quark is against the new changes in Ferengi policies, including its treatment of women, so why would he go through all the trouble to keep it that way? Loyalty to the Nagus? His mother? I guess . But to have a sex change operation to achieve something he was against in the first place? And as it's been said - he learns NOTHING after all this!

    Yeah - not a good episode. Embarrassed that it was on DS9.
     
  10. Bad Atom

    Bad Atom Commodore Commodore

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    To keep it short: All the worst elements of Ferengi storylines combined into a perfect storm of suck. One-note characterization, overly broad slapstick comedy, juvenile writing, and insulting sexism. Even worse, it immediately followed a run of really good episodes. Terrible timing.
     
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I hate to play hack's advocate here, but Quark's motivation was the threat of Zek being deposed and Brunt becoming Nagus.

    So you have made 100 accurate criticisms and 1 incorrect one. ;)
     
  12. LOKAI of CHERON

    LOKAI of CHERON Commodore Commodore

    Brilliant summation.

    +1.
     
  13. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    But, really, the Ferengi heads of state needed to be TOLD that by denying their females the right to clothing and possessions they're halving their potential profits?
     
  14. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

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    It's probably not entirely accurate to say that Quark had a "sex change operation" considering such an operation, pretty much by definition, involves surgery on and changing of the genitals. Which, it's unlikely that was done in Quark's case. He had breast augmentation and other forms of cosmetic surgery but for all we know his genitals remained intact.
     
  15. Reeborg

    Reeborg Commander Red Shirt

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    I guess in Quark's case a surgical removal of genitals would not have been necessary. As we all know, Ferengi (males) hardly ever have balls. ;)
     
  16. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If sex changes were as quick and easy as Trek makes out you would think everyone would go on a two week holiday as the opposite gender at least once.
     
  17. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I never thought I'd wander into a thread where people are wondering about Quark's genitalia. In one of the TNG episodes though (The Price?), a visiting Ferengi in the background of a scene makes a gesture possibly indicating he's hung like a horse.
     
  18. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's true we constantly see people have cosmetic surgery. Bajorans altered to Cardassians, Cardassians altered into Bajorans, Trills and Bajorans altered to Humans, Humans altered into Klingons.

    However it's unclear how 'Natural' their flesh remains when they are changed back to their original shape. After Second Skin how much of Kira's skin is natural flesh and how much is very well fitted plastic? It's different to mess with a Ferengi's ears. Asking a human to live with bits of plastic in his face is different from asking a Ferengi to live with fake ears.

    Then again I guess if you can regrow a kidney you can regrow ears.
     
  19. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's sexist, racist, and makes fun of sexual assault.

    I like Ferengi episodes just fine, such as The Magnificent Ferengi. That one is silly and ridiculous, but fun and upbeat. Also, Iggy Pop.

    Profit and Lace could have been decent, but ended up being so offensive it isn't even funny anymore.

    The rest of the discussion in this thread is rather amusing, though. :p
     
  20. strtrek

    strtrek Cadet Newbie

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    I actually enjoyed the ferengi ep's... its a shame they didnt explore the whole quark/ odo relationship a bit more. But back on topic, this was a great ep...BTW I'm a female and didnt find it sexist...I thought it was "realistic" to the whole ferengi culture, and that as in our history, the female rights movement took a while to evolve...why should the ferengi be any different.