Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Mr Light, Jan 3, 2014.

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Nemesis

  1. Excellent

    3 vote(s)
    1.6%
  2. Good

    31 vote(s)
    16.5%
  3. Average

    49 vote(s)
    26.1%
  4. Bad

    49 vote(s)
    26.1%
  5. Terrible

    56 vote(s)
    29.8%
  1. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    This is the biggest problem, really. I have no idea how John Logan keeps getting work, and if you ever need an explanation for why you never let fans write the movies, Nemesis is Exhibit A.

    It's just such a lifeless and perfunctory script, with much of its beats being lifted from other (better) works:

    - Generic dune buggy chase with Three Kings-style bleach bypass cinematography? Check!

    - Picard touring the ship as it prepares for battle, delivering a solemn monologue? It worked great in "The Best of Both Worlds," let's do it again!

    - Lore was a great "evil Data," let's have another Soong android except this time he'll be evil and dumb!

    - Battle inside a nebula? Wrath of Khan did it, so we should, too!

    - Battle against a cloaked death ship? Hell yeah, we're going to do this shit Undiscovered Country style!

    - We need to kill the lovable science officer / captain's best friend, but he needs to make a heroic sacrifice to save the ship! Thanks for the inspiration, Spock!

    - Oh shit, we need to have our version of "Remember" ... OK, stupid Data will sing Irving Berlin!

    - The ticking time bomb weapon of death worked so well in Insurrection, so let's use that again, too!

    The movie blows.
     
  2. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    So true. A movie that tries to be good by mindlessly aping good movies is not destined to be one, itself.

    The dune buggy chase has got to be one of the most wrongheadedly superfluous scenes in Trek history.
     
  3. SpocksLeftEar

    SpocksLeftEar Lieutenant

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    This is what you get when you agree to promote two of the lead actors to producers. This gives them much more influence, and the story inevitably revolves around them and no one else.
    Apart from this bit STX was so bad because it was a poor copy of "Wrath of Khan" with a villain who is as bland as a white wall and all of sudden appears out of nowhere.
    STX was one of the reasons for the decline of the franchise, and that's the only remarkable bit.
     
  4. cardinal biggles

    cardinal biggles Patron Saint of Dangerous Driving Premium Member

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    What can I say about this film that I haven't said fifty-eleven times since it came out?

    Not much. Nemesis is still shitty after all these years.

    Poorly contrived villain. Poorly designed plot. Phoned-in performances from the TNG cast. Poor use of their guest cast. A poorly-written, fan-wanky script with plot holes so big you could pilot V'Ger through them, penned by the most overrated hack currently at work in Hollywood. And for the coup de grĂ¢ce, sub-par directing from a man who never should have left the editor's booth (where he did, and continues to do, outstanding work) and only got the gig because Paramount owed him a favor.

    From the negative reviews to the negative fan reaction, to the distinction of being the only Trek film not to open #1 at the box office, to its reputation of (with Enterprise) having helped kill the franchise (or at least new stories in the Prime Universe), Nemesis deserves all the scorn it receives, and more.

    The budgets were far beneath the ambitions of every Trek movie script from Wrath of Khan to Nemesis. The TOS films compensate with better writing (as you pointed out with your comparison to Search for Spock), while the TNG films tried to compensate, for better or worse, by making Picard the action hero he never was. Throwing more money at Nemesis would have simply resulted in the film being an even bigger flop.
     
  5. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's right, the entire movie was depressing to the max. All the TOS movies ended hopeful, even TWOK. By the time I saw TWOK I already knew about TSFS, so Spock's death didn't have any effect on me. However, I can tell the movie tries to end in a very good light, sort of like saying "yeah Spock is dead, but this is the Trek universe, where anything is possible! so don't be surprised if you see him again"

    Nemesis did not do this at all except for the B4 whistling scene, which in no way, shape or form made me believe that was going to be Data again. It was just going to be retard B4 with some of Data's memories. Sorry movie, it just didn't work.

    That's what I thought we were going to get: A Romulan political intrigue story. I was thinking to myself "finally we're going to see what TNG has been cock teasing us with for 7 years!)

    And we get.......vampires?

    And with the space battles, at least it was the first in a Trek show or movie, where shields are 90% and the ship isn't tearing itself apart inside already (That seems to be a ridiculous trope in all post TNG Trek, where even the first phaser/torpedo hit is gutting the ship from inside, sometimes even requiring evacuation of engineering/consideration of ejecting the core, and the shields haven't even dropped below 90% yet :rolleyes: )

    But what pissed me off is that I always wanted to see those huge D'eridex warbirds in action. And what do we get instead? These scrawny seagull looking ships that looked like they needed to eat.

    I cannot picture the Romulans flying around in those. They are a proud race and like flying around in huge D'eridex class warbirds! not these skinny anorexic ships they have in this movie.
     
  6. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of story flaws and silly ideas.(Picard, a senior citizen, going off to fight alone on the Scimitar, for example) Shinzon never really works as a supposed "dark mirror" for Picard as they are nothing alike. The movie seems to ignore developments in DS9 about Worf and the Romulan Empire.

    However, the movie's not really that bad. It's an improvement over Insurrection, and mostly suffers in fandom from coming out at a time when the franchise was in serious decline.
     
  7. Armored Saint

    Armored Saint Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You can also add Shinzon as a Sela recycling. At least, if Sela had been implicated in Shinzon creation, she would have kept him on Romulus or kill him. The Romulans are used to kill "useless" children and it was unstrategic to send him in the trash with Remans.

    In Star Trek VI there was some good reaons:
    - The food had the same color. :p
    - It was not a bad idea to drink something neither human nor klingon.
    - It was itself a conspirator.:p
    - Kirk and co were understandably uncomfortable. Seriously Worf, was it THAD bad for you to be there?

    Kolarus III is the proof that they had already too much money.

    It could have been worse, in 2002-03, it was the Blade and Buffy era, not the Twilight one.:p

    I think there had a kind of interdimensional rift, because we had what we were waiting from Star Wars second trilogy: a main character's clone. And he came with the ugly Viceroy and Jar Jar Binks.

    However, Nemesis is not bad as Die Another Day.
     
  8. Ancient Mariner

    Ancient Mariner Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It felt like an example of bad fan fiction to me.
     
  9. GotNoRice

    GotNoRice Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Trek movies had come out about every 2 years for a very long time, then there was a 4-year gap between Insurrection and Nemesis. By the time the movie came out there was a lot of pent-up desire for a good trek movie.

    In between Insurrection and Nemesis, both DS9 and Voyager ended. That meant that Nemesis was literally the last view we are ever going to get into the 24th Century timeline that began with TNG in 1987. It also made you wonder, since both Voyager and DS9 ended rather abruptly IMO, if they were going to make it into the movie somehow. Aside from the small Janeway cameo, there didn't appear to be any mention of DS9 or Voyager. They also completely ignored Worf's DS9 character progression. I mean, he became the Klingon Ambassador to Qo'noS yet the Ent-E calls and he's back to playing some dumb tactical Officer like the last 10 years never happened?

    The emphasis on Picard and Data was as insulting as it was annoying. Data just isn't that interesting of a character at this point, and the obviously aging actor almost makes Data seem silly.

    Too much reliance on gimmicks. Jeep scene, ramming the ship, etc.

    My animosity for Nemesis comes mostly from the fact that from the very first time I watched it, I knew this was going to be the last 24th Century Trek movie we'd ever see. Whereas, if the movie had been good, with a compelling plot and relying less on gimmicks, it could have set the movie franchise back on track with us getting a new movie perhaps 2 years later. Perhaps that movie would have even had elements of DS9 or Voyager in it.

    Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

    RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Obviously, there was no demand for a Trek movie period. Nemesis was beaten by Maid in Manhattan its opening weekend and things just got worse from there.

    The reason 24th century Trek (and Enterprise) is no more is because it didn't change with the environment around it. The same basic dull characters, camera angles, music and spaceships hung around for twenty-five seasons and four movies. There was no growth and the franchise floundered against more creative and dramatically appealing fare.

    I've been a fan of Trek since 1975 and the best thing about the Abrams movies is that they brought a sense of fun back to a franchise that had been missing it for far too long. YMMV.
     
  11. GotNoRice

    GotNoRice Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Perhaps not among the general public, but there certainly was among Star Trek fans. Voyager had ended extremely abruptly, with almost no Alpha-quadrant followup, and DS9 left a lot of things ambiguous as well. Nemesis was our only hope at the time for getting any resolution to any of this. Obviously, it didn't deliver.

    First Contact was a fantastic movie, and I didn't think Generations was half-bad either. A good plot is all it takes.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not among any Trek fans that I knew. Most of the fans I knew were totally burned out on Star Trek. I was totally burned out on Star Trek and I didn't care about follow-ups to Deep Space Nine or Voyager.

    Star Trek: First Contact was a zombie movie wearing Trek clothes. I'd rather watch Nemesis.
     
  13. GotNoRice

    GotNoRice Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I guess we knew different fans. Back in the day even this board was going nuts with excitement in anticipation of Nemesis.

    Everyone's opinions are different of course but First Contact is almost universally accepted as being the best TNG movie. It also has the highest IMDB rating.
     
  14. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    I would say "going nuts" is an overstatement. There was a fair amount of interest in it, and people were intrigued by John Logan writing (this was before he was exposed as a bobo who piggybacks on other people's work), but the wind fell right out of the sails when the script leaked (and a blogger named The Facer did an annotated review of it) and people realized it was going to be a massive pile of dogshit.
     
  15. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've seen at least one fan edit which omits it entirely, and the movie loses nothing. A quick shot of our crew on the planet picking up pieces of android, then a cross-fade back to the Enterprise. Tightens the scene up nicely. Really shows just how superfluous it is.

    If only the rest of the movie were so easy to fix! :D :D :D
     
  16. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This.

    They kept on rehashing the exact same styles in every single show and movie. For the movies they needed to at least update some of the more worn out stuff.

    JJ Abrams Trek is what I wanted to see with the TNG crew, in the sense that they needed to drop the lame jokes and stale writing, and become a bit more fast paced and contemporary

    I remember my exposure to the script was a site that jokingly let you rewrite the script. I thought the script it was using was a joke script, and still went into the movie expecting something much better. I was wide eyed the whole movie to see that this lame "joke" script was repeating exactly the same in the movie.
     
  17. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    This is true, and I think the best films in the series modulated their ambitions to fit their budgetary constraints. When I point out that the script had more ambition than the budget allowed, that's not a criticism of the budget, it's a criticism of the script. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was made for less than any of the other films in the series, but it still holds up because Meyer and Bennett planned ahead and spent their money wisely.

    Star Trek: Nemesis falls apart in terms of scope as soon as we see the Senate of the Romulan Star Empire and there's barely enough extras to populate a PTA meeting.

    Considering that, adjusted for inflation*, the budget of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was $24.24 million (less than half of the $60 million that went into Star Trek: Nemesis), Baird, Logan, and Paramount did not spend their money wisely.

    *From 1982 to 2002 dollars.
     
  18. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell so far this is a dumb future Premium Member

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    What's so messed up is that there was no reason to shoot that sequence at all. No need to show the planet's surface in any way. No need for the action sequence. Just go into orbit over the planet, beam up the android parts, done. That probably would have saved a couple million bucks and the film would have lost nothing.

    Wasn't that whole sequence something that got added because Patrick Stewart wanted more action-oriented scenes? There is no story reason to justify it, as far as I can tell.

    And that's just one example of the many, many things wrong with the script, and with the film itself.
     
  19. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Star Trek has never been a charity for nerds. Making money was always been Gene Roddenberry's and Rick Berman's #1 goal.

    Read the novels, the adventures of TNG, DS9 and Voyager continue on to this day (along with TOS and ENT)
     
  20. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Even if it was Stewart's demand, there is no reason why it is not integrated into the story properly. The attackers could already have been Reman for example.

    John Eaves also once wrote on his blog that the buggy was supposed to be hovering, but that Baird shot that idea down because he wanted wheels.

    But the argument "no need for an action sequence" is kinda faulty in itself. There is NEVER a need for an action sequence other than added spectacle. You can cut out the escape from the Scimitar, you can cut out the entire final battle from the script.