Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Kuro Pit, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. Admiral_Sisko

    Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander

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    For what it's worth, I don't like nuTrek's portrayal the of the Romulans at all, but I do understand why some may be willing to overlook their flaws more than they are with the Romulans portrayed in Nemesis.

    nuTrek is an entirely different interpretation and presentation of Star Trek. It's nothing like Roddenberry's Trek. It's not even comparable to Berman's Trek. Therefore, the various characters and alien races featured in nuTrek are subject to their creator's unique interpretation. People aren't bothered by nuRomulans because they're nuRomulans. As long as their portrayal in nuTrek remains consistent, there won't be much of a fuss about them.
     
  2. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Let's see, a race of people who are known to exact hard-core vengeance upon anyone whom they feel betrayed them just lost their entire effing planet, and the particular group whom we're focusing on blame Spock for not helping them in time.

    Romulans are vengeful....check
    Their homeworld is destroyed...check
    The guy who was supposedly going to help prevent this failed...check
    Nero (and his group of Romulans) feels betrayed and wants vengeance on the person they are displacing on, thus plan to equalize the loss in accordance with their view of exacting revenge...


    ....check.

    Putting all that aside, NuTrek is a popcorn flick/reboot that's not trying to be 100% in line with what came before. The same excuse cannot be said of Nemesis.


    Both of which were part of the problem. FYI - That "new" Romulan symbol must have been bad marketing on the part of the studio then, right? I mean, if it's what you say and the movie wasn't about the Romulans, then using their symbol as part of the marketing ploy was essentially false advertizing.
     
  3. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly.

    That's one of the other problems - Donatra was backing a guy who was supposed to take the (weakened post-Dominion War) Romulan Empire to war with the Feds, then she makes a complete 180 and even cozies up to Picard...gimmie an effing break. It's just silly. The very reason the pro-Nemesis camp claims Romulans backed Shinzon is because they wanted war with the Feds. Donatra was one of them. But then she's like:

    "Hey Picard, about this clone of you who I backed and made Preator because he was gonna take out you and the Feds? I've now changed my mind about him, and BTW, let's be friends, m'kay?"

    Yeah, no.

    :rolleyes:
     
  4. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Honestly, regardless of whether the portrayal of the Romulans in particular was bad (and I personally believe that it was), no-one's decisions in that film make any sense whatsover. That's a general problem with NEM. You might be particularly bugged by the fact that the Rommies helped the aforementioned pimply nerd become praetor, which is your right, but I think that everyone was portrayed like idiots....they're all over the place. This is not limited to the Rommies.

    Which is the reason I believe that NEM is not a good film.

    Popcorn cinema is one thing, but stuff has to even marginally make sense...and in NEM, it doesn't, at least to me. STXI made sense to me, which is why I like it much better. In the end, it is a matter of opinion.
     
  5. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Clones, it failed right there. And you got TWO major characters with clones!
     
  6. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another thing that didn't make any sense. Case in point, right?
     
  7. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    btw I want to add I don't hate Nemesis. I've watched it about 5 times and I'll probably watch it 5 more times. It's just not a very good movie and it does some annoying things to Our Heroes. Killing Data, giving us B4, making Picard look weird and senile, a rape scene which was not about bringing the violence and drama up to some reality level but about a sleazy adolescent's rape fantasy and of course marrying Troi to that dolt.
     
  8. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But...but...then we wouldn't have the connubial bliss that is Titan :p
     
  9. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've never been one for romance. But that's not why I thought it a crime :lol:
     
  10. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah because Star Trek XI couldn't have worked with any other Star Trek race. Any race had they lost there planet and families would be aggrieved and angry. Star Trek XI could've worked just as well with the Klingons or Cardassians or some other new race. Nothing in Star Trek XI in the motives of the villains was exclusively to the Romulans. The destruction of Vulcan you could argue that there was a connection there but there isn't as clear a connection to the Romulans and Vulcans as related races for the audiences to really get involved like we the fans. If Spock had promised to save Kronos (Klingon home planet i forget the spelling) and failed, the Klingons would've sought revenge on his planet first also.

    I still don't understand why the Star Trek XI Romulans sport Darth Maul facial tattoos, but given that deleted scenes of Klingons involved them wearing Darth Vader like masks I surmise JJ thought it would cool to blend traditional Trek races with Star Wars. At least the NEM Romulans were keeping it real, bowl cuts and all.
     
  11. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    You guys have got to be kidding me. NEM is not about the Romulans. I just rewatched the film and counted how much time they are physically on screen. 8 minutes and 2 seconds. A movie that has an hour and 56 minute run time ( one hour and 49 minutes if you don't include the credits), and we a debating how out of character a race of people who were minor characters to the whole story of NEM.

    Shinzon's Romulan collaborators you can count on one hand. 5 Romulans helped him overthrow the senate. While it was Commander Suran had secured the loyalty of the Romulan Fleet (which was off planet during NEM), Suran was the mediator to the fleet and Shinzon. Shinzon propped himself up on the throne and declared himself Praetor, it doesn't mean the Romulans had pledged fealty to him. In fact assassination and betrayal is common thing on Romulus.

    I don't understand this whole thing with the Romulans being "so out of character". Dontra rallying Suran to help fight Shinzon, I interpret as the Romulans whole twisted sense of logic. While not the most honorable race, they aren't monstrous enough to exterminate an entire race of people. They are conquers. They are not an evil race. In NEM i found nothing so egregious by their portrayal to warrant such hate. I surmise there is some expectation that all Romulans have to be cold, calculating, and super intelligent villains who are always hiding their true motives. When in reality they are on par with humans in their development and technology. Cultures are different but as TNG The Chase showed, deep down they are similar to humans. The novel of NEM conveyed a sense that while the Federation and Romulans have been at odds, they don't instinctively hate each other. There is a scene in the book where Romulan medical teams help Doctor Crusher with the wounded on board the Enterprise. A female Romulan doctor saves Worf's life after he had suffered terrible disruptor burns to the chest.

    The claims of xenophobia are bs also. Maybe you all have forgotten TNG Birthright where a Romulans had willingly lived with and started families with Klingons captured from camp Khitomer, or TNG Face of The Enemy where a human who had lived on Romulus for 20 years and had no trouble from the Romulan government or the Tal Shiar for being human. Shinzon was a proven warrior and had a plan to topple the Federation. He found Romulans who was support his plan and set out to execute it. Although he didn't seem to be in much of a hurry, and you'll note the dissatisfaction of Commander Suran at Shinzon's delay in action.

    The hope for Trek in the end one day all races should be united. While NEM is more of an action peace, these ideals were in John Logan's screenplay. Due to focus of the director and length of time these were cut.
     
  12. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exactly. Thanks for saving me some time. Klingons where already used similarly in this capacity in ST:VI with the destruction of their moon + are far too popular to risk destroying their homeworld. And them people would say "ugh, Klingons again?"

    Cardassians? Again, as you said, there's no connection. The whole point seems to be "eye for an eye" + an OMG WTF?! factor. But it's set up in a way that the entire Vulcanoid species has a chance in either universe.


    Klingons again? See above.


    I don't either, except for the fact it was a way to differentiate them from Vulcans for the non-Trek audience.


    You mean what they didn't have in TOS?


    And yet it was marketed as a movie which would feature the Romulans as antagonists. Again, part of the problem.



    :rolleyes:
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A problem for you. And you might want to stop with the roll eyes after every post, it's considered rude. People are going to disagree with you, might as well get use to it.

    The biggest problem is they talk about this awesome villain who took control of the Romulan Empire. Then we get Forrest Gump.
     
  14. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He was a sleazy little shit.
     
  15. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    A problem for the movie. It's failure on so many levels did not hinge on whether or not I approved of it or not.

    Now apply that to the eye roll.

    You're quite right, BTW, and since this is a public message board/discussion forum, people are often going to keep posting their opinions. That doesn't just mean ME, it means everyone. It's not my place or anyone else to imply that contributing to this thread should cease and desist in any capacity. As much as I despise this movie is as much as anyone can like it, and I'm fine with that, but when people chose to discuss their opinions about it, it's gonna end up similarly to this thread.


    Agreed.

    :bolian:
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2012
  16. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    QFT

    :rommie:
     
  17. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not to mention schizophrenic. Nothing he did made any sense whatsoever. That guy lived in a different reality and left audiences all over scratching their heads.
     
  18. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Of course Shinzon was crazy - a lifetime of abuse and finding out you're just a faulty, unwanted copy of a great human who lived a privileged life will do that.

    Were Hitler's motivations and reasons for wanting to exterminate the Jews any more rational than Shinzon wanting to wipe out humanity and kill Picard to validate his own existence? Hell no. That's how real life crazy works.
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They were both shits.
     
  20. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh so true.

    But to Hitler, his motivations made sense because of a number of reasons (the Jew thing being part of a general anti-semitic sentiment going 'round the world). Smart people could predict basically everything he did based on his 1920s book Mein Kampf, and that was almost a decade before he was elected chancellor. It's really all in the book: anti-semitism, his reasoning as to why the German Empire should expand to the East, the hatred against communism (also widely spread during those days), the resentment against the French....he virtually explained why he did all those things before they even happened. Shinzon wouldn't be able to explain his motivations if his life depended on it.

    His life did depend on it, and still his actions made zero sense.

    Of course Hitler was a crazy shit, but the enemies were the enemies and he didn't change his mind in the middle of things. If you compare him to Shinzon, it's like Hitler mid-war decided that the Austrians (his country of origin) were the enemy and set off to gas all of them.

    So yeah, two genocidal sons of bitches, but not quite the same level of schizophrenic. Real-life villains usually act logically from their own perspective. Hitler was consistent in his insanity. Shinzon is not.