Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Kuro Pit, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I've always like Violations quite a bit and would definitely place it in my top-30. :techman:
     
  2. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Please tell me you're referring to the episode title.
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Yes. That's why it's capitalized and italicized. :lol:
     
  4. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sorry, couldn't resist.
     
  5. CommanderRaytas

    CommanderRaytas Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hehehe.

    This is just a tiny percentage of my fridge logic moment about an hour after watching NEM at the cinema. Most of it started with "wait, why the hell...."

    I believe most points are valid, but what bugs me the most (if I bother to think about it) is the lack of coherent motivation for anyone in that film.

    Nevertheless, I still watch it from time to time, and am able to get some level of entertainment out of it (mostly I watch it when I visit my parents, who love it to bits. It's become something of a tradition)...but the film is not a very good one at all, to put it mildly.
     
  6. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I.e. he had the senate murdered - same group you just said he had an "alliance" with along with the military. With friends like that...



    This from the guy who implied a story focusing on a 1st officer main character would have to have a captain who's an idiot so the 1st officer could look good. Well, I have to question your understanding of writing characters and storytelling.

    Romulans have an established Modus Operandi which they follow. Romulans who don't follow it are uncommon enough that when they are featured in the shows, it's as a "WTF - You can't be like that!" factor in contrast to what we know of Romulans. The Romulans featured in Nemesis don't follow any sort of Romulan pattern, dissident or otherwise. Their motivation makes no sense in light of the situation they are in and in comparison to past depictions.



    Coming out of a war and starting another one right after. Not only is it a silly move for a battered army, but they would have to deal with both the Federation AND the Klingons who would be more than happy to fight people whom they consider both treacherous and generally dishonorable. Furthermore, the Romulans tend not to go "ballz out" - they lure their enemy to them, test weaknesses, and then strike.



    "Embarrassed" - WTF? They helped win the war. The Dominion lost it. Embarrassment - FXD.



    So with partial trust, some of their military officers stand up to the leaders of their empire.

    With partial trust, a Senator follows Shinzon's orders and sneaks a weapon into the senate chambers and commits mass murder.

    With partial trust, they allow slaves to have weapons AND to park a super-weapon above their homeworld.

    With partial trust, certain Romulans are willing to start another war right after finishing a previous war, with no real guarantee of success.


    Yeah, keep going, dude...

    :rommie:
     
  7. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Last week I saw DS9: Homefront and TNG: Unification, and I had the same thoughts about Nemesis: a bigger scope would have helped. We never ever see a single glimpse of the huge machinery that would be involved in a real life event of this magnitude.

    All we see is a dozen of senators getting killed and then it's "Ah well, there's a new guy.", and then it's all about Shinzon and the crew of the Enterprise. The outside world doesn't exist. No media, no public, no other politicians, no military, no diplomats involved, nothing.

    It reduces these films and episodes to chamber plays.

    Just imagine the same story applied to a real world scenario: Chinese government gets wiped out, and some guy takes charge, and secretly prepares a devastating attack while saying "We want peace!". Such a film would not have such a tiny scope on screen. If it did, it wouldn't feel realistic at all. In such a film, we would see at least a glimps of the machinery. Media coverage, people's reactions, a more realistic politically and military machinery, etc...

    Even the tiniest things would have added to the scope, like a scene outside of the Romulan Senate. Picard and Shinzon not confering at a small table, but walking through a park, with lots of extras, and buildings, and stuff and shit. Picard being on Earth in San Francisco when he receives the order to go to Romulus, and Janeway, as an admiral, is shown to have a big crew working for her in the background in her offices. Shinzon making a public announcement that he's the Praetor now, intercut with shots of civilians and starfleet watching the broadcast. Stuff like that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    *In reference to Romulus Prime's post...

    This above post shows Trek's biggest failing. People have been conditioned into thinking that an entire race of people are all going to act alike and think alike. Shinzon aligned himself with like-minded folks. There were apparently folks in the military who were willing to align with him, at least one senator who aligned with him and likely some members of the Tal-Shiar who aligned with him.

    The United States at one point had alliances with both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, who shared nothing more in common with us than being the enemies of our enemies.

    Star Trek: Nemesis doesn't fail because of Shinzon's rise to power, it fails because his actions make no sense for most of the movie that we actually see and that some elements were forced into it that really didn't fit.

    Hell, the Roman Empire had non-Romans rule it at times.
     
  9. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    1st of all, I didn't say they ALL think alike (missed that part where I mentioned "dissidents?")

    2nd, their society is always being watched by the government and the Tal Shiar. Conformity is essentially a mandate. Klingons aren't too different in regards to seeking out social conformity by force and words. Neither are the Cardassians.



    No, he didn't. Slaves want to be free of their captors. He also doesn't seem to particularly care for Romulans, and if this had been a well thought out story, they COULD have had him as more of a "freedom fighter" type, rather than a creepy, melting kid-Picard who's got a thing for cougars.


    All of which makes Romulans look like idiots, which they were in this movie. They don't take stupid risks like that.

    Supposition based on nothing substantial OR believable.


    We're not Romulans. They are (supposed) to be alien with a different way of of viewing the universe they live in.

    With regards to your examples, neither of them were US slaves who were given fully loaded F-15s and F-16s (thank the French and Soviets for Saddam's Mirage, √Čtendard, and Mig fighters). Furthermore, the Afghan conflict was about Soviet expansion (again) and Iran's hardline government had only slightly less hostility as it does now. Both were dangers to world stability, and still are (Putin's Russia now.) If you don't believe me, just look up the latest Ahmadinejad quotes, and look how much Russia tries to stifle any interference with Iran, and with ally Syria which might end up with Al Assad being deposed. Different situations which are not even remotely similar to anything found in Star Trek: Nemesis


    It fails for all these reasons.

    The Roman empire never had non-HUMAN rulers at any point.

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I can't believe you typed that... :rofl:

    Shinzon does not gain control of the Romulan Empire without the help of Romulans. You can do all the backwards somersaults you want to work around it. It simply doesn't happen.

    Riker even says in the movie that the praetors power has always been the Romulan fleet. Shinzon does not take control without the support of the fleet.

    Early in the film, they're on the right track. They paint this image of Shinzon being this cunning, cold warrior who takes control of the Empire. But they present us a pimply nerd who is infatuated with Troi's hair and wants to have tea with the brother who had a better life than he did.

    Shinzon rising to power isn't the problem, it's the fact that the character we see doesn't match the character we are told about.
     
  11. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    From Julius Caesar to Romulus Augustulus to Thomas Palaiologos, you name me one Roman Emperor, co-Emperor or heir of either the whole empire, or of the Western/Eastern periods who were of a different species other than human.



    The only thing backwards here is the retcon of Logan for his Remans and clones. The only reason it happens at all is due to a piss-poor story with weak and (supposedly) scary-looking bad guys + a melting clone of kid-Picard.


    Riiight, the xenophobic Romulan military not only trusts slaves with guns, but also a clone of a non-Romulan that exposes their plot to infiltrate the Federation. Riker can say whatever he wants in a movie full of silly mistakes and unbelievable situations. It doesn't change the fact the Romulan military and Tal Shiar would go apeshit at even a hint that a clone was planning to take over their Empire. The movie itself even proves this as a highly probable scenario by the fact that someone who backed this guy - DONATRA - decides that Shinzon isn't someone worth any level of trust or loyalty.

    Wow, a Romulan who can figure out that a clone of an alien who leads a slave race probably isn't a good candidate as leader of the Romulan Empire. Crazy talk, man! Who'd of thought of that?

    :rolleyes:


    His laughable rise to power is part of the problem. Anyone who "get's" the Romulans and understands what makes them unique on a psychological level can see that. If you don't, that's understandable - not everyone delves into the inner workings of every Trek race.

    In contrast, the Romulans have always been my favorite Trek race, mostly because I "get" why they are xenophobic and arrogant about their place in the universe. Not every Romulan is the same as the rest, but most have a certain behavior which they follow. In order to understand what makes them different, IMO, the individuals who define them best are the Commander from The Enterprise Incident, Commander Teibok, Sub Commander Taris, Ambassador Nanclus, Centurian Bochra, Admiral Jerok, Commander Tomalak, Senator Pardek, Sub-Commander Selok/Ambassador T'Pel, Commander Sela, Mirok, Varel and Parem from The Next Phase, Commander Sirol, Senator Letant, Nero, hell - even the damn soup lady in Unification.

    But if you really want to understand their psychology and what goes on in their heads, I have a single episode for you to watch: In the Pale Moonlight - DS9. Both the exchange between Dax and Sisko, followed by the meetings Sisko has with Senator Vreenak and the subsiquent "aftermath" of the meetings demonstrate precisely why the Romulans in Nemesis are written both clumsily and inaccurately.

    :vulcan:
     
  12. Spock/Uhura Fan

    Spock/Uhura Fan Captain Captain

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    I didn't hate it. I just thought it was marginal. Maybe even marginal at best. *Shrugs*
     
  13. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    I myself don't hate Nemesis, it's so so, there's stuff I liked like the wedding, the combat bits, the cute Romulan girl, and so on. The dune buggy was a bit silly, though, but I do like seeing Picard having some fun and with a shit eating grin for a change. B4 sort of cheaped Data's demise, though.
     
  14. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    After reading through the posts on this and other NEM topics, I am beginning to feel that detractors of the film have set their standards unbelievably high for a popcorn movie. Is that what we the fans have become? A bunch of high standard otaku who troll Trek by nitpicking every single thing we find wrong about a 2 hour long movie. Citing how often it breaks continuity when shows like DS9, VOY and ENT have more gaping plotholes but no one flames them on excess. NEM is not bad like INS, which in fact is the film everyone of the cast members of TNG hate.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Just wow.


    Dont patronize me. I watched the entire run of DS9 when it originally aired and own the series on DVD. In the Pale Moonlight is one writers interpretation of the Romulans, Nemesis is another writers interpretation.

    You may like one more than the other, but both are valid.
     
  16. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Waiting for a reply again. Do you want me to list every Roman emperor, or what?


    I'm not patronizing anyone, I'm telling you about one episode which did a fine job of summarizing the Romulan psyche and how the majority of Romulans have been consistently portrayed in Star Trek, from Balance of Terror onward.

    You say Nemesis is another interpretation - exactly. I totally agree with you. Like I said, that's part of the problem with this movie.

    :rolleyes:
     
  17. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Yes different writers = different interpretations. Just like the Romulans of Star Trek XI possess none of the traits they do in past series' or movies. They are generic bad guy villains but you don't criticize them for being inaccurate to canon for their characterization.

    NEM i give a pass on this because the film isn't about them nor are there that many of them. It's more about John Logan's creative brainchildren the Remans.
     
  18. Admiral_Sisko

    Admiral_Sisko Lieutenant Commander

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    I agree. As someone who finds Romulans fascinating, I think they're portrayed extremely well in The Next Generation, given what we learned about them from their portrayal in The Original Series. They are distrustful of outsiders, and are extremely proud of their heritage, traits that they display throughout their appearances across multiple television series.

    Yet, none of these traits are displayed in Nemesis, at least not in a way that makes sense. Are all Romulans alike? No, but it's reasonable to expect them to behave with certain parameters, just as it's reasonable expect any one of us to behave a certain way as human beings. The Romulans of Nemesis are decidedly not distrustful, and in fact put their trust in the wrong person when they support Shinzon's assassination of the Imperial Senate. Why?

    Donatra eventually realizes her mistake and aids the Enterprise crew in their attempts to stop Shinzon. Her comments to Picard about Shinzon's coup being "an internal matter of the Empire," may be interpreted as Romulan pride, but they could just as easily be construed as a simple apology for the misfortune that's befallen the Enterprise. Her overtures to Picard near the film's conclusion are also out of character for the Romulan people.

    "You've made a friend in the Romulan Empire today, Captain, hopefully the first of many."

    Again, why? Granted, the Romulan Commander seen in "The Chase" expressed his hope that Romulus and Earth would eventually stand together in peace, but he was willing to only go so far in voicing these feelings aloud. Donatra's comments seem over the top by comparison. It's possible that her views are a reflection of a younger generation of Romulan citizens- a group influenced in part by Ambassador Spock's Unification movement- but surely an Empire that works so diligently to avoid dissent of any kind would avoid placing such an individual in a position- ship's captain, no less- where she could influence others and create ripples of disloyalty.

    I've recently started reading Taking Wing, the first novel of the Titan series, and without giving away valuable spoiler information, I'm much happier with the way that the Romulans are portrayed. Had they been cast in a similar light during Nemesis, it's possible the reception of this film would have been better than it was.
     
  19. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    Yea, it's odd folks praise all the JJ Trek stuff, including the Romulans, which felt nothing like Romulans I am familiar with, but rip the Nemesis ones.
     
  20. The Borg Queen

    The Borg Queen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Does it matter?
    Even Galaxy Quest was a better Star Trek film than Nemesis.