Why is Nemesis hated so much?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Kuro Pit, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. Silversmok3

    Silversmok3 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    After the Enterprise is given official sanction to cross into Romulan space and it is being pursued by its Praetor ?:confused:

    Safe to say the time for the olive branch was long over with by that point. Considering Picard was in starship combat with the leader of the Romulan Star Empire ,Starfleet would have nothing to lose by sending backup.Shinzon can't file a diplomatic complaint from the grave or a Federation jail cell.

    Nemesis failed in the first duty of a movie, and that is to entertain. There are plenty of implausible movies which are fun to watch nonetheless. Nemesis is implausible, illogical, and depressing. At least in Insurrection the characters had some positive experiences.( if only the Geordi sunset scene could have been the whole movie!).
     
  2. Set Harth

    Set Harth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Location:
    Angmar
    And with no mention whatsoever of Lore. That was the part that didn't work for me. I mean, give the TNG fans some love, it's a TNG movie after all. Don't just aim everything at the popcorn-smackers who show up with no knowledge of the series the film is based on.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    This.

    Especially in this day and age, when the "general audience" reads up on unclear things on the Net immediately after the film anyway.





    I went into the Avengers without having seen any of the films that lead up to it. Didn't get everything, so I decided to wiki it. Then decided to watch the films.
     
  4. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2001
    Location:
    Somerville, MA
    I watched it today with some friends. It's not nearly as terrible as I remember. I think a lot of the negativity towards it is so blown out of proportion. Up until Shinzon kidnaps Picard and tells him he's "lonely" I think it's a very compelling and interesting Star Trek movie.

    Once we find out Shinzon's plan and his motivation, I think the movie begins to fall apart a little. Additionally, there's something about the movie where the whole affair feels almost tired. I can't explain it. It almost feels like the film is an early draft of a script.

    In the end, I don't hate the movie. If anything, I get frustrated with it because it could have been so much more.
     
  5. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Agreed. At least address the frickin' possibility that B4 might actually be Lore before bringing him aboard your ship!

    Picard's comment about Dr. Soong and his "whimsical names" obviously had Lore in mind, but it wasn't enough.
     
  6. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    It should have been Lore, or nothing. Either Data decides to activate him to bring him back into the light, basically, or the Romulans steal him to lure the Enterprise/Data into a trap.

    What exactly was the point of the scene where they find B4 and are chased? What would have happened to them had they been caught or killed? What was Shinzon's plan with that?
     
  7. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination

    The Remans couldn't have used Lore for the trap because the ENT crew wouldn't have let their guards down for a moment-unless the Remans just totally reprogrammed Lore to be more like how B4 was. At any rate, the trap didn't work since the crew gave them deliberately inaccurate info.
     
  8. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Shinzon's plan was to wait until he was a week from death, then lure Picard with the lure of exciting offroad action so he could capture Picard. Shinzon likes playing the odds, you see.

    It's unclear what would have happened if 1) the Enterprise failed to notice the positron emission, 2) the Enterprise did the prudent thing and took several weeks to return B-4 to a Starfleet research facility, 3) Starfleet sent regular ambassadors to meet Shinzon instead of Picard, or 4) Picard was killed while playing dune buggy.

    I doubt there was a backup plan for any of these things. I suspect the Shinzon would have hit the fan.
     
  9. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Didn't the orders to proceed to Romulus come after they found B-4? Picard would've had to disobey orders to return him to a Starfleet facility.

    "I thought it best to return the slow android to Starfleet first, even if it pisses off the new Romulan praetor who is making a call for diplomatic relations."

    Since Shinzon was a known warrior, he was probably banking on Starfleet sending a starship captain to meet with him. He may have even asked for one to be sent in lieu of an ambassador. He could have asked for Picard by name.
     
  10. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    True, but he couldn't count on either of those things. These are a lot of assumptions to gamble on when you only have a week to live.
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Well, like they say, "timing is everything"... :techman:
     
  12. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    I also hated the three-way mind rape. How does that make for a good Star Trek, or a good anything?
     
  13. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    I can see how filmmakers considered it essential to what plays out later on. Troi being able to sense the location of the Schimitar, having been in contact with the Viceroy. Turning the tables and using that Betazoid ability, instead of a tech idea like repeating "gotta have a tail pipe" or "ionic pulse brings down the cloak". Then later Riker kicking him off the ship, during their confrontation of course. What's lacking in that plot is, Picard's shocking lack of empathy for Troi after the first assault. Shinzon's earlier deleted scene attempt to reach Troi, appearing to her while she's in the turbolift is creeply effective, and its inclusion in the film would have signalled the more supernatural aspect of what was going on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  14. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Location:
    The broken state of California
    ^ And yet it still ends up being a massive amount of "WTF did I just watch?" in a scene that really didn't add much to the story, nor was it necessary to write the script as such.


    As for Shinzon being a "known warrior," you'd think Section 31 and the Tal Shiar would have some opinions about a cloned Starfleet officer who's rallying slaves around him + building a super-weapon. I'm thinking the opinions would be something like "eliminate it ASAP."


    Guess both parties were on vacation during the time leading up to the movie...

    :vulcan:
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Since Shinzon had built alliances within both the Romulan Senate and military, it's likely he built them within the Tal'Shiar as well.

    What Shinzon did probably took years of planning and behind-the-scenes dealings.
     
  16. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Oh, we couldn't just have Troi be able to detect whether or not the Viceroy was telepathic the moment they met on the Scimitar? We had to resort to two people mentally raping her instead. There are other ways this could have been handled without resorting to the most foul act a movie villain (In this case Villains) could inflict. This is Star Trek for cripes' sake.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    You know this isn't Disney, it's suppose to be grown-up sci-fi drama.

    How many times did Troi get taken advantage of during the series run?
     
  18. Romulus Prime

    Romulus Prime Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Location:
    The broken state of California
    Ridiculous on this level alone...oh wait, it's only half ridiculous since he murdered the Senate.

    You don't know too much about Romulans I take it? There general mistrust of others is the norm for the majority. The MO of the Tal Shiar is that x10, expecting it as a given from everyone. There's just no way they would ever be complacent with slaves, let alone a clone who's rallying them.

    No.

    Fucking.

    Way.


    And no one ever suspects he might do anything with the "man"power and weapons he has? 100% trust and no questions asked? PLEASE.

    The job of the Tal Shiar is to suspect everyone, especially the obvious potential internal threats to the Empire.

    These really are just more excuses to compensate for the complete lack of understanding of the Romulans by the writer, as well as his shoe-horning the Reman concept in for the oogly-boogly, eeeevil-looking bad guy effect.

    :rolleyes:


    A three-way mind rape doesn't = grown up anything. It's a set up for Riker and Troi to have something to do later since TNG movies have always been "The Picard and Data Show". As for Troi getting similar treatment in the shows - so what? Who says that scenario is worth revisiting?

    :vulcan:
     
  19. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    No, the new Battlestar Galactica is a grown up sci-fi drama. And that series was smart enough not to think "You know what this series needs? A dune buggy chase in the desert!".

    Star Trek was best when it was a fun, relaxing sci-fi adventure story that the whole family could enjoy. Sometimes you'll have tribbles, sometimes klingon disputes, sometimes a weird bit of time travel, and even a moment of character development that affected the entire series.

    Do those episodes rank in the top 10, or even to 30 best episodes of TNG? Because when I hear about a great TNG episode, it doesn't involve "Troi gets taken advantage of!".
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    alt.nerd.obsessive.pic
    Oh wait... it's not ridiculous since Senator Tal'Aura murdered the Senate with a miniature Thalaron device and the Romulan military was following him. Like I said, he had to cultivate alliances within the Romulan government.

    They're TV villains there to serve the story, not the other way around.

    They were never presented with someone who promised them the Federation. Sometimes people will contemplate unholy alliances if it gives them what they want. Who knows, the Tal-Shiar may have had plans to eliminate Shinzon once he delivered them a victory over the Federation.

    Not to mention the fact that they were embarrassed badly by the Dominion and may have lost quite a bit of political capital after their blunders.


    There is no indication that anyone has '100% trust' in Shinzon, they're simply following his flag to get what they want.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2012

Share This Page