Why is Janeway so fickle over AI RIghts?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Lighthammer, Sep 1, 2013.

  1. Lighthammer

    Lighthammer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You know, I just got to wondering --- there are a number of episodes where Janeway is really gun on AI rights (especially where the Doctor is concerned) and other episodes where she all but rails against AIs having any rights.

    Why is she so fickle over this? Is this just really bad writing for the character?
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, it's like different people keep putting words into her mouth.

    Writers change, story editors change, and they all have their own take on every character. The actors can argue about stuff they don't agree if they think it's out of character, but those arguments can be ignored by everyone else.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, Janeway's really bipolar at times.

    "I'll destroy this ship rather than give the Kazon a replicator!"

    later...

    "Oh you took our ship over and brutalized our crew to fulfill your violent fantasies for weeks? Here's your holodeck technology, please don't bother us again Hirogen!"
     
  4. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    ^The interesting thing about that is isn't that what the Kazon did. I mean the Herogin didn't strand the voyager crew on a baron planet so maybe that was the difference.
     
  5. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well Janeway said she'd destroy the ship a few episodes before the stranding. The only difference is the Kazon were too dumb to even operate the replicator without Seska's help... whereas the Hirogen, were at least slightly smarter.
     
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Seska should have just slit Cullah's throat and taken over.
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seska can't individually seduce the whole race. That's all it was too since females technically had no standing among Kazon.
     
  8. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Except Janeway made the replicator remark early on, well before the events of Basics, and Kazon hadn't treated them any worse than the Hirogen up to that point unless you count spreading rumors about Voyager being a death ship.
     
  9. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Inconsistent character development on VOY? I am shocked. Shocked I tell you :lol:

    The series suffered for poor character development and writing, so hardly surprising. Plus its a subject that has no real importance. Data deserved equal rights and status since he is so complex and unique (with the exception of Lore that is), but holograms simply aren't. They're tools, nothing more and trying to make it an issue was just dull and unoriginal.
     
  10. propita

    propita Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TITCR

    The studio didn't want consistency, they wanted individual episodes, and whatever made that particular story okay was what they wanted. They didn't care about the characters, or even about the fans.

    What the studio did to Voyager as a show with this attitude would not fly with many shows anymore.

    I feel bad for the actors who wanted more, I mean everyone runs into crap like this on a job, but ours aren't so public. We have our frustrations in private, these people have them out there for everyone to see and criticize without having the full facts.
     
  11. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the Doctor had the same argument Data did. Not at the beginning when he was first activated, but after he'd been running for a while and his program had been rewriting itself on its own for a while. By the end of the series it's hard to make an argument for Data that doesn't apply to the Doctor.

    Back in the Kazon arc they were still trying to carry the show with a consistent theme. By the time the Hirogen came around it was all about what they needed for the story they were telling at the time.
     
  12. Captain Kathryn

    Captain Kathryn Commodore Commodore

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    I love Janeway, but I believe she did go against Starfleet protocol by "giving away" their holo-technology to the Hirogen just so they would stop doing what their species had already been doing for hundreds or thousands of years.

    That said...if it stopped the Hirogen from killing everyone in their path, then I suppose holograms are a better alternative. Too bad they made the holograms so advanced that they became stronger and more cunning than the actual Hirogen. -_-

    THAT said...I do believe that someone as sentient as the Doctor should be given somewhat equal rights. Where the line is drawn is a tricky one.
     
  13. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    I don't think this is a fair comparison.

    giving the Kazon a replicator would alter the balance of power, it would make that sect more powerful than the others.

    giving the hirogen the holotechnology wouldn't change any balance of power. Also the hirogen had been examining and learning about the technology for weeks, they had a good understanding of how it worked and would probably have been able to come up with their own eventually anyway
     
  14. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    the tricky thing is that is he really sentient or is it all just a matter of programming. Take away a few lines of code and he can no longer sing. Take away a few lines of code and he can't speak, take away a few lines of code and his whole personality is changed

    The Doctor had a desire to grow beyond his programming....is that something common among all the EMH mark 1s? Is that desire part of their programming? Do they all have a desire to learn and grow? or was the doctor unique in that aspect. If there was a second ship somewhere that left their mark 1 running for as long as Voyager did, would he also develop interest in art and music and such?
     
  15. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    Weren't some of those questions addressed in "It's Only A Paper Moon?" Vic Fontaine's extended period of operation led him to deepen his understanding of human psychology and a desire to manipulate his environment (at least within the confines of 1960s America).
     
  16. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    no, Vic was always aware that he was a hologram, he never had a desire to change anything. The only thing that changed for Vic in that episode was that from that point on Quark said he would keep him running all the time
     
  17. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The "matter of programming" argument could just as easily be applied to Data in any case.
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I always thought Vic was every bit as sentient as the Doctor. Just different in their treatment and goals. From day one the Doctor was treated as a tool despite his brilliance. I think this is what led to his ego inflating, the desire to show everyone how invaluable and capable he is. Vic was treated as roughly an equal by everyone from day one. While the Doctor wanted to expand his horizons in the real world, doing new things such as singing, holowriting and photography, Vic just wanted the freedom to explore his holographic world beyond being turned on only to sing.
     
  19. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    You asked whether continuous operation of a holgraphic program, one that is programmed to adapt and learn from its circumstances (which both EMH and Fontaine do, albeit to different effect), affects their development. Vic literally says so in the script. Did he need to develop an interest in music? No, but he develops an interest in economics. The fact that he doesn't intend to live outside the confines of simulated Las Vegas isn't material. The episode even raises the question of Vic having free will (though it doesn't answer it). Does the program need to desire to grow in order to be alive, no less sentient? I guess someone who sits at home, watching TV, could be said not to be alive in a figurative sense (which is what Nog does in the episode), but it cannot be said that he or she is not living.
     
  20. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Commodore Commodore

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    I think that's a fair assessment. Where they really differed was in terms of the contexts in which they operated. Vic received the appreciation that the EMH strove to win. Moreover, the EMH, dealing with questions of life and death in his work, might have approached his own development more thoughtfully.