Why is Janeway hated so much?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by TheMightyQ, Jun 16, 2013.

  1. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well the thread speaks for itself. Some don't like Janeway, and some do. Those who do, it's almost cult like with their devotion to her. As by the comments of some on this thread, there's clear implication by some that if everyone else doesn't like Janeway as much as they do there must be something wrong with them.

    I don't hate Janeway, I do think she's a very inconsistent character to say the least however and she has made some very bad decisions. But heck every Trek captain has at some point. I've even said she was insane at times given her polarity at times and complete 180's in her values and decisions. Really the problem with Janeway wasn't that she's the first female captain, it's that they wanted to put her in a heroic position to so often "make the tough call" that the attempts to do so are often silly at best and thus make the character look silly. Heck, half the time you can tell it's Jeri Taylor story when it's about how awesome Janeway is.

    While I find Mulgrew's voice to be grating at times, she really did a good job with the material... it just could've been better. It's hard to take a character seriously when she's just so random. One week she's saying she'll never give up her technology to the Kazon or ally with them and they must stick to the Federation's values. The next week she's allying with the Borg and helping them design a weapon of mass destruction to destroy an enemy at the cellular level. One week she's going on about how evolved humanity is and how they'd never kill a person who stole Neelix's lungs against his will to save his life. Later she kills a man against his will to save two people she likes more. And so forth.

    So yes, being critical of at best questionable decisions they make doesn't equate to "hate," "jealous", "being stupid", "frightened by confident women," or anything else some people are saying to demean people who have the audacity to not share their opinion.

    While I think Janeway may be insane at times, at least she's not incompetent. Archer is both. ;)
     
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Archer is not interesting enough to be insane.
     
  3. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For me, it's pretty much a case of character inconsistency.

    All through the series, she has a borderline compulsion between
    1) never compromising Federation ideals and upholding Starfleet protocols at all costs and
    2) Get. This. Crew. Home!

    Any given eps, you can almost flip a coin to see if Janeway is gonna go all out in an attempt to rescue her crew or if she's gonna be a stiff-ass about not compromising Federation standards.

    Which Janeway are we gonna get this week?
     
  4. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    A lot of the Janeway hate is rooted in misogyny too. As for being "cult like", well that phrase is in itself an attempt to discount the fact that there are real Janeway fans, in other words it's just another way to say Janeway fans are crazy. I have always said everyone has the right to dislike the character for what ever reason, what you don't have, is the right to degrade the fans that do like her.

    To quote Jacqueline Lichtenberg (who was the major author of Star Trek Lives, and the Semi/Gen Books) -
    http://aliendjinnromances.blogspot.com/2010/10/star-trek-voyager-and-captain-janeway.html

    She should know what she is talking about since she has attended thousands of "Trek" and "Science Fiction" conventions. Usually as a speaker.

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Lives!

    (this last link is being funky, if you click on it you don't get the page, but if you copy and paste the whole thing including the ! mark you will get the page.)
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  5. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    ^But are some men rejecting Janeway because she is female or because the character was inconsitantly written? If the majority is in the later then there isn't a problem, they are rejecting an inconsistiantly written character . Do men have a problem with strong women, do they reject Kira from DSN?

    The problem with the character of Janeway is not that she is a woman, but the fact that the character was inconsistantly written.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  6. Chemahkuu

    Chemahkuu Admiral Admiral

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    Another vote for the poor writing. Kate gave it her best, but much like Enterprise, whoever wrote the episode that week did a bad enough job, next week it would be worse.

    Trek captains have always been a bit...strange and made questionable decisions, but the Janeway character was one of the most poorly written, as were several of the Voyager characters, very unfair on the people portraying them.

    I have nothing against the cast, and everything against the writers. That's where the problem lies.
     
  7. SchwEnt

    SchwEnt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Right on. It's the way the character was written, not that she was a women or a man or Andorian or black or bald or American or anything else.

    I don't think people hated Janeway because the character was a woman, it's the scripted characterization.

    Similarly, I don't think people should adore Janeway because she WAS a woman. Poor character is a poor character, male or female isn't any excuse.
     
  8. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    I recently started watching the episodes that have Shran in them, and I kept hoping that he would replace Archer as Enterprise captain. So much more dynamic, but that's Jeff Combs for you.

    --Sran
     
  9. LOKAI of CHERON

    LOKAI of CHERON Commodore Commodore

    Why do fans find it so difficult to reconcile Janeway's so called "inconsistencies" as no more than an aspect of her overall personality? Heck, I know people who are just as, if not excessively more, "inconsistent" - that's just part of the human equation IMHO.

    In fact, I'd go as far as saying this factor of her character makes her more human, more believable, than many of Trek's "mono-beat" personality types.
     
  10. QuarkforNagus

    QuarkforNagus Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Right now, I'm watching a Voyager episode where Janeway wants to form an alliance with the Borg...

    Bitch, Q gave you so many opportunities to get home and you've let "principles" get in the way. Now, she wants to get home so much that she wants to ally with the Borg and risk assimilation?

    She's always talking about the Prime Directive, but she destroys the array that could have gotten the crew back to the Alpha Quadrant to prevent an imbalance of power in between the Kazons and the Ocampas.

    It just doesn't make sense. They have her doing weird shit like this all the time.

    Just call Q. Do him whatever favour he wants, and have him snap you back into the Alpha Quadrant. She got it much easier from Q than Picard did. I don't get why she isn't asking him for assistance.
     
  11. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because of fear!

    "There was a woman who lived on a spaceship
    nobody knew her or knew about her fate
    but mothers would say to their children, Beware of Captain Kate.

    Kate would sing with her crew in the morning
    laugh with the engines in the cold end of night
    but people who watched their TV:s, said she's not quite right.

    Kate had it made, she was living the life among the stars
    but her ship was her home among those stars and the crew were her friends
    she was free

    So here was a wise one who loved all the haters
    she loved them so much that their hate turned to fear
    and shaking in front of their TV:s the loved ones would hear

    Dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai dai da, dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai daa

    Dai de dai de dee dai dai dai dai dai dai dai dai daa"


    "Captain Kate"

    Original song: "Mad John" by The Small Faces

    Written by: Steve Marriott and Ronnie Lane

    Original lyrics slightly altered by: Lynx
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  12. teya

    teya Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I liked Janeway well-enough until I started hearing from her fans that if you don't adore her, then you're a misogynist.

    You cannot have it both ways. You cannot slur people who disagree with you and then demand respect for your own position.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The only thing I meant by saying -almost- cult like is there is a high level of devotion to the character by her fans that there is a tendency for them not only like her but feel compelled to defend her ardently... but attack anyone who doesn't take their position. Add misogyny to the list of that one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
  14. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It was way overdue that Trek had a female Captain as a lead character. I was excited when Voyager was announced - I just found it so disappointing in reality, and Janeway was a big part of that.

    DD9 spoiled me for later Trek shows...
     
  15. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    QFT.

    --Sran
     
  16. BruntFCA

    BruntFCA Commander Red Shirt

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    For me it's because Janeway wasn't intentionally written that way, her inconsistency wasn't a flaw in the character but a flaw in the writing.I think that if the character had been written to be inconsistent on purpose with the writers aware of it then it could have been extremely interesting but its obvious that it was unintentional. Janeway was always written from the POV of being right and nobody ever called her out on her BS.

    In one episode Janeway makes a deal with the Borg and then in another episode "I don't compromise with BORG", an entire episode is made about Janeway respecting a planets government and not using the black market only for the next season to have an episode that starts with the Janeway TRYING TO BUY FROM THE BLACK MARKET!!!

    The biggest WTF is Unforgettable which on the surface is just an ironically forgettable episode but if you actually think about the the time line given in the episode it proves that the writers were either incompetent or they just didn't care. From what we see and what we are told the series of events are as follows-

    Alien comes aboard VOY and seeks asylum from oppressive government but is turned down by Janeway and turned over to oppressive government.

    Then

    Another alien comes aboard VOY and seeks asylum from the same oppressive government and this time Janeway decides to grant it.:rolleyes:

    You have literally the SAME EXACT SITUATION in the SAME EXACT EPISODE and yet Janeway makes two completely different decisions and neither the characters or the writers even notice.

    Kate Mulgrew was absolutely brilliant in the role and I can't imagine anyone else man or woman as the captain of Voyager, I just think that it's a damn shame that she wasn't given the the quality of writing to work with that Stewart and Brooks got.
     
  17. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Where other people see inconsistency I see flexibility. Of course she said "I don't compromise with Borg", it was a great fuck you I'm not your bitch line. Doesn't mean she won't use the Borg via deals if it's to her advantage.
     
  18. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Any deal made with the Borg is a type of compromise, so that statement doesn't make sense.

    --Sran
     
  19. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As I said it wasn't a legal document, it was an attitude in your face statement.

    When Picard was crapping on about the line must be drawn here! this far! no further! it's a speech, it's about attitude. He has no control over whether a gazillion Borg vessels suddenly appear and do make him fall back again, despite the speech. The speech is a chest thumping moment, the same as saying in a gritty voice, "I don't compromise.."
     
  20. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^Chest-thumping means nothing unless one is prepared to back it up. Saying "fuck you" before getting your ass kicked isn't something to be lauded for.

    --Sran