Why Does Khan Assume Kirk Knows Anything About Genesis?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Clark Terrell, Mar 12, 2014.

  1. BK613

    BK613 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If Carol's call to Kirk was the only transmission about Genesis, and Khan arrives at Regula to find no Genesis, it's not a stretch for Khan to think that Kirk knows something about its location.
     
  2. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    I thought Kirk knew everything since he's an Admiral and issued a lot of orders including Chekov's post on Reliant. Probably Reliant's misson itself.

    When he accessed Dr. Marcus' presentation it was for the benefit of Spock ans McCoy. Spock had just asked him: "it would help my analysis if I knew what Genesis is"

    The novelization IIRC supports this.
     
  3. Grant

    Grant Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As usual the specific dialogue was cut out in editing the movie................



    45 INT. RELIANT BRIDGE 45

    Khan occupies the Captain's chair. We PULL BACK: the
    crew of the RELIANT has been replaced by Khan's fol-
    lowers in their odd-looking clothes.

    At the helm is Joachim, Khan's lieutenant. He is in the
    largest and brightest of Khan's group. Terrell sits in
    the First Officer's chair, Chekov at the Comm Console.
    Their behavior is normal, save for subtle hesitation,
    symptoms of their mind-controlled state.

    JOACHIM
    Steady on course. All systems normal.

    KHAN
    It's not much different from
    Enterprise.
    (beat)
    When I was a guest aboard her some
    years ago, Captain Kirk kindly allowed
    me to memorize her technical manuals.
    And now, Mr. Chekov, let us review:
    You say you have no details of
    Project 'Genesis' ?

    CHEKOV
    Beyond what I told you, sir, it is
    classified information.

    KHAN
    Umm. And would Admiral Kirk have
    access to such information?

    CHEKOV
    I would think so, sir. He's on the
    Fleet General Staff.

    KHAN
    Then to whom do you report directly
    regarding Genesis?

    CHEKOV
    To Doctor Marcus, the civilian
    director of the experiments on Space
    Laboratory Regula I.

    KHAN
    (thinks)
    I see. Helmsman?
     
  4. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    Not a stretch, but not a given either. Carol only called Kirk because of Chekov's earlier message, something Khan himself was counting on. When Reliant encounters Enterprise, Khan has already been to Marcus' lab and found nothing. The Enterprise was en route to the station, which means they couldn't have the Genesis materials on board their ship. Kirk himself may have known of the project, but that doesn't mean he'd have been able to tell Khan anything useful.

    There's absolutely nothing in the movie or script that supports this hypothesis. Even an admiral has limits as to what he knows or is authorized to do. Kirk was Commandant of Starfleet Academy. His flag rank probably granted him the necessary security clearance to view the Genesis tape, but that doesn't mean he'd seen it before or that he knew anything more than the simplest details of the project itself.

    Correct, but that doesn't mean he knew that much more than they did. It's possible he'd seen the tape before given his comments about how long ago it was made, but that again only supports the theory that he had basic knowledge of the project. There's no reason to believe that he knew of the project's more technical aspects or that he issued the orders assigning Reliant to find a test site for the device. Chekov was on Reliant, yes, but he was under Terrell's command, not Kirk's, and hadn't been for several years. And as Terrell himself said he'd never met Kirk before, it's a stretch to believe Kirk gave him his assignment.
     
  5. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    Quite so. It appears likely (and dramatically satisfying) that Kirk would not have been able to give Khan what he wanted, even if Kirk caved in to Khan's demands. Kirk's role in all this may have been minor, but in Khan's eyes, it would of course be major: all evil in the universe must stem from Kirk, and lots and lots of seeming evidence is accumulating to support Khan's deranged belief that this is so.

    Kirk knows Carol, and knows Carol works on Genesis. He doesn't seem intimate with either the woman or the project, though: he doesn't recognize the grown-up David, and he knows nothing about the Genesis Cave. And it seems neither Carol nor David is much better off there: their ideas of Kirk's role in Starfleet and his relationship to the project are fuzzy as best. Heck, Carol doesn't hail Jim because he would be her immediate superior or contact man or anything - she hails her only Starfleet ex-lover because she needs insider help from or possibly against Starfleet.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  6. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    As I recall, the phrase was "life from lifelessness." That doesn't mean bringing life to the dead. There wasn't any life there to begin with, so there couldn't be anything dead to bring back to life.
     
  7. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    Starting with Terrell's seeming announcement that Kirk had been promoted since Khan had seen him last, something Khan seems to briefly obsess over, as though he believes Kirk's promotion was directly related to his leaving Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha V-- because a man capable of overcoming genetically-enhanced supermen couldn't be any good at his job or have done other things to justify a bump in his rank.

    Something she does in part only because Chekov lied about his involvement. He could just as easily have said that Harry Morrow or Lance Cartwright gave the order, in which case she'd have contacted them instead of Kirk. Kirk's role in the affair isn't minor. He doesn't seem to have a role at all until he's dragged into the middle of a huge steaming pile due to poor coordination between Starfleet and its civilian scientific branch. Reliant should never have been sent anywhere near Ceti Alpha V for the very reasons we saw onscreen.

    If Starfleet was worried about knowledge of Khan spreading beyond the relative few who knew of him, they could simply have told Terrell that the system was off-limits for security reasons and left it at that. Clark Terrell was a well-respected starship commander, but he never seemed the type to stick his nose where it didn't belong. In any case, Starfleet should have reviewed the list of possible test sites before allowing Reliant to proceed with its survey mission to ensure that each area was safe.

    Their negligence set in motion a chain of events leading to Khan's escape, the destruction of three Federation starships, the deaths of three Starfleet captains (though one was restored to life), another in a long list of conflicts with the Klingon Empire, the deaths of several civilian scientists and the internal controversy spurred by the charges against Kirk and his friends for circumventing Federation policy to go to Genesis and retrieve Spock. All told, I think Starfleet Command should have put itself on trial rather than punishing Kirk (and this is coming from someone who believes the entirety of the TOS films is an illustration of Kirk's leadership-by-arrogance approach to starship command).
     
  8. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    Except it does exacly that.
     
  9. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    At first I was wondering who/what the third was, and then realized I'd forgotten about Esteban and the Grissom (shows how much of an impression he made!).
     
  10. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    That's understandable considering that he spent more time notifying Starfleet of what he was doing than actually doing it. I can't help but wonder if, in the brief few seconds that passed between his order for evasive maneuvers and Grissom's destruction, he asked Starfleet for permission to evade the BOP's torpedo and was waiting for their answer when Grissom exploded.
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Khan also tortured some of the scientists at the Regula Space Lab. Perhaps Kirk was involved in the project at some point. Perhaps Carol Marcus took it to Kirk first and Kirk then took it to the Federation. The scientist knew this and during their torture the name Kirk came up.
     
  12. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    Maybe, but I never got the impression that Kirk was Carol's only friendly acquaintance in Starfleet. David didn't approve of the organization and referred it by the broad term of military more than once, but Carol disputed his interpretation of the situation and argued that Starfleet was primarily a peace-keeping organization despite its differences with the civilian members of the Federation.

    Whether David's views were the result of his alienation from his father or merely the naïve worldview of a young man who, despite his education and intellect, possessed little in the way of common sense and life experience and viewed anyone not dedicated to purely scientific endeavors as being less than he was is something I can't answer. Not enough details about his life are shared in his relatively brief appearances.
     
  13. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Yes, I know that's what it did. However, that's not what it was originally intended to do.
     
  14. Leto_II

    Leto_II Captain Captain

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    Although too, without that same negligence (paradoxically), the Earth itself would've been completely destroyed and much of the human race obliterated, since that chain of events basically put Admiral Kirk and his crew in position to rescue the Federation from the Whale Probe when all other Starfleet assets within range had been neutralized.

    In 20/20 hindsight, many historians from Capt. Picard's era likely consider the loss of three starships as being an eminently worthwhile tradeoff.
     
  15. Clark Terrell

    Clark Terrell Lieutenant Commander

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    I thought about that. It's interesting how events played out. Had the TWOK training cruise gone according to plan, Kirk would likely have never gotten another starship command, and Enterprise would eventually have been decommissioned.

    No doubt, but that doesn't change the fact that Starfleet botched the entire Genesis affair in every way possible. Three starships seems like a small price to pay decades after the fact only because things didn't turn out much worse.
     
  16. Unicron

    Unicron Continuity Spackle Moderator

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    The old 25th Anniversary game had a fun mission which involved rescuing the starbase where Stage One of Genesis was being developed from a Romulan attack. Carol and her crew's research had accidentally created a viral agent that caused pneumonia-like symptoms in Vulcans and Romulans, and the Romulans mistook this for a Federation bioweapon.
     
  17. Shawnster

    Shawnster Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I count the 25th Anniversary game and Judgement Rights as canon and part of seasons 4 and 5. I loved seeing the FJ tug show up in one of the episodes
     
  18. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    That only reafirms Kirk is a hero. THE hero.

    The use of the terms "old" and "25th Anniversary" together reafirms STAR TREK LIVES FOREVER

    soon it will be the 50th
     
  19. Brutal Strudel

    Brutal Strudel Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Kirk was Chief of Star Fleet Operations between TOS and TMP. We don't what his job was during TWoK but Chief of Star Fleet Operations would put him in the direct chain of command over a mission as vital as Reliant's.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Admiral Admiral

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    ...And six hundred and thirty-three other missions of equal clout, no doubt.

    When we concentrate on the select few onscreen exploits of our heroes, we forget how much clutter there must be in the lives of 23rd century Starfleet officers in general.

    Say, Chekov should remember that the Ceti Alpha system featured in his earlier adventures (even if Kirk never told his crew exactly what the ship was doing in that system, or even where she was - his PAs never were particularly informative). Except why should he? It's one of probably hundreds of systems he has visited in professional capacity, if he's kept up the rate evident from TOS. He had much more exciting adventures elsewhere.

    Up till the nineties, fallible human memories should have been a plausible excuse for things like ST2. Today, of course, we have Google; checking up on trivia takes no effort at all, and is something we might expect a future hero to do before he goes to toilet, let alone before he beams down to a planet. But Trek heroes don't have Google (nobody in the serialized TV world has, or plots would be much shorter); they don't have memory implants, nano-secretaries or virtual familiars; and we should respect the fact that they aren't exactly Neil Armstrong or Flash Gordon. They are in space because they have work to do, and typically that means they aren't particularly excited about it; aren't interested in digging up potentially related trivia; and don't scan for possibly exploded planets out of mere curiosity.

    Timo Saloniemi