Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Civ001, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    England
    There are some interesting non-humanoid Borg mentioned in the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novel The Return. It's a shame the TV shows and even movies of the era couldn't afford stuff like that.

    There was also a comic where Borg from the future, including assimilated Species 8472, were travelling back through time.
     
  2. Lilyful

    Lilyful Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2011
    Location:
    Land of Oz
    I think for me the Borg became too action movie in Voyager. They were much more cerebral in TNG.
     
  3. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Location:
    the real world
    As I recall the Borg have always been emphasized to adapt to threats. The Voyager crew modified the Hanson's tech to sneak in, the Borg adapted. SOP. The real thing is that the Borg Queen held back as she was busy trying to seduce Seven of Nine. This is often held as weakening the Borg but Picard in BOBW and Data in First Contact basically got the same treatment.

    Survival Instinct never gets complained out, but the Borg drones there are freed, as I recall, by merely being out of range. They certainly manage to "escape" later on, which makes the notion of being a mindless slave somewhat moot. And of course Seven of Nine gets to be the Borg Queen in this episode. This one really does violence to the power of the Borg Collective.
     
  4. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
     
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Doesn't Worf say in BOBW that "Shields are being drained" after the tractor beam hits?
     
  6. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    Definitely.
    There may no actually be a differnce between that holding beam and the tractor beam but in Q Who they acted as though it was some thing unknown...then again they also called the cutting beam "a type of laser".
     
  7. G2309

    G2309 Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Any pictures available of the comic?
     
  8. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I never got the whole notion of humans being naive exploring the galaxy. I think it's more naive to think that by just staying home on Earth that somehow makes us safe. Sure there are dangers; by wandering into space you let other species know about you, but I think I'd rather know what's out there then wait for the baddies to just drop in on us a la Independence Day.
     
  9. Saquist

    Saquist Commodore

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Location:
    Starbase Houston
    It is sort of strange to call humans dangerous and savage and naive in the same sentence.
     
  10. Sadara

    Sadara Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Location:
    New Mexico
    I must be missing something. Where exactly did you see that?
     
  11. Crisp Crinkle

    Crisp Crinkle Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Location:
    Gene's office
    Actually, it was TNG: The Best of Both Worlds Part II that hopelessly kneecapped the Borg, by so easily defeating them with the sleep command. Before anyone tries to come back with "but it wasn't so easy", let's imagine how many species the Borg have assimilated. Are we to believe that none of them are as ingenious or capable as humans? Puh-lease.

    Really the problem is: Humans, and especially our hero-ship, must prevail. Therefore, we can't have an arch-enemy that is truly bad-ass. TBOBW1 was an excellent episode and ended with a brilliant cliffhanger, no question about it. But it painted the Ent-D into a corner for which the resolution was lame, lame, lame. And afterwards, in later episodes, we were beaten to death with the "individualism will win out over collectivism" metaphor in I Borg, but most egregiously in the Descent two-parter. The idea that the Borg would malfunction just because Hugh was re-assimilated was ludicrous. Again we have to imagine just how many times this problem must have come up before for the Borg. Are we to assume that no species except humans interacted with a drone temporarily isolated from the Collective? PUH-LEASE.

    All this having been said, Seven of Nine was an excellent character, beautiful and intellectually gifted. I found her to be a welcome addition to VOY. Yes she was great to look at, but the show would not have been as engaging to me as it was without her character.

    I believe any unrealistic weakness the Borg displayed in being vulnerable to those pesky humans is traceable to TNG:TBOBW2.
     
  12. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Yes they did, they specifically said they were caught in a "tractor beam" when it first appeared, and said "the tractor beam has released us" when it went away. I think you might have Emissary and Q Who mixed up. In Emissary it was blue and they didn't say what it was (but the same weapon shown there was also specifically called a tractor beam in BOBW).


    My point was "what became green that wasn't already green?" They didn't just indiscriminately dump green paint all over everything. Greens and blacks were already a defining characteristic, and they built on that.

    The cube in QH was predominately black with a green glow coming from inside... so was the cube in FC. The green glow was even in the original concept art.

    The torpedoes in QH and cutting beam in BOBW were green, so the Borg weaponry is green in FC.

    Green control panels? Here they are in BOBW: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Borg_viewscreen.jpg
     
  13. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    I love how the viewscreen in BOBW was also a Cube. They should have maintained that and had the viewscreens inside the Spheres be Spheres.
     
  14. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Location:
    The Singularity
    Unimatrix Zero shows Voyager disabling a Tactical cube - something that's supposed to be more powerful than an ordinary cube - and warping away without chase. Q-Who? shows Enterprise disabling an ordinary cube and warping away, only to be immediately chased down by the same cube and nearly assimilated (thanks to last minute save by Q).

    Hence, Voyager borg equals week and pathetic.

    The funny thing here is that I think the writer's realized this and tried to explain away the weakened borg with one line in "Dark Frontier," where the queen reveals to Seven that the borg put Seven on Voyager deliberately (a sleeper cell, sort of). But that explanation only insults the character of the Borg as we know them.

    Especially, when in said episode, the Delta Flyer is able to escape several pursuing Borg ships. This simply isn't believable.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    The Tactical Cube is smaller than an Assimilation Cube, and the designation "Class 4 Tactical" implies it's also weaker.

    Funny thing is, if VOY was always able to put together armadas and they always got wasted by the Borg in every encounter, and all of VOY's Borg stories were the same except they had an armada at their command, no one would complain. The quality wouldn't matter, the number of cannon fodder ships getting trashed would redeem those stories.

    The Cube in "Q Who?" and BOBW was something meant for taking on entire civilizations and assimilating their important worlds, a "Tactical" Cube by comparison is going to be for tactical battles BEFORE the major assimilations happen. Softening them up for the Assimilation Cube's major attack.

    The real problem was overpowering the Borg so much, making them so numerous along with the overpowering, and being lazy in not better defining them earlier on.
     
  16. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2005
    Location:
    The Singularity
    Doug Drexler, the man who designed the tactical cube describes the drawing that was chosen as basically "a Borg cube wearing a flak jacket!" Source

    So, no, it is NOT smaller than a cube. Why would you even say that? Also, a Tactical Cube is described as a Class 4 tactical vessel that is a type of heavily armed Borg cube utilized by the Borg Collective. Where did you get the idea that Class 4 somehow implies weak? The fact that it has hull armor already makes it more powerful than a cube and that's before we start talking about weapons capabilities and other features.

    How do you know what the cube in "Q Who?" was for? Or what a Tactical Cube is for? There is no mention of purpose for these things on screen... ever. It is more likely that the Tactical Cube exists solely to combat Species 8472 or others like them, but this is just speculation.
     
  17. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Then they should've made that more clear, since the image we see of it is smaller than an Assimilation Cube.

    If it was a "Class 1", then I'd think it was a powerful vessel. And "Tactical" is lesser than "Strategic", "Tactical" is for individual battles as compared to conquering civilizations.

    Having hull armor doesn't mean anything for Trek ships, never has never will.

    As it is, the Tactical Cube comes off as weaker than an Assimilation Cube.
     
  18. zar

    zar Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    I don't even...

    What?
     
  19. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    I believe what Anwar is alluding to is the comparison of tactics and strategies in military terminology, tactics are small scale and local, strategies are large scale and global.

    Tactical nuclear weapons are small/medium sized and strategic nuclear weapons are huge.

    Tactical Air Command had fighter planes, Strategic Air Command had big bombers.

    Also, in America, to be first class is considered far better, than to be fourth class.

    The old British Royal Navy used first rate to refer to its largest ships of the line. First rates comprised those ships mounting 100 guns or more on three gundecks. A fourth rate ship had a single deck and a few dozen guns and was usually considered to "weak" to stand in the line of battle.

    :)
     
  20. froot

    froot Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2010
    Location:
    Guarding the Compound with the Grey Wardens
    Okay, but here's the real problem.

    If the Borg want to assimilate the Feds, why just send one Cube? Why go to all the trouble to time travel a la First Contact? Why try and formulate some kind of plot like Dark Frontier?

    All they'd really need to do is gather up a few thousand Cubes, transwarp to Earth (or use a hub) and get busy, honestly. Maybe a few million, if they really want to make sure they'll clean house.

    You've got to have a little suspension of disbelief with these guys, both in TNG and VOY.