Why do people keep saying Voyager weakened the Borg?

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Civ001, Jul 21, 2011.

  1. CaptainMatt

    CaptainMatt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I will go on record and say that I do NOT believe Voyager weakened the Borg. It was always more a matter of overkill than weakening them in my regard anyway. The Borg were not meant to appear all the time on TV Trek, they were meant to be used a certain way and that way became forever altered by the time the feature film First Contact came along and introduced the Queen and, indeed, more horrific ways to assimilate people that contradicted earlier stories and suggested ideas. Voyager simply took the ball and ran with it with having them on all the time from about mid-way through the series' seven year run. As stated elsewhere I actually enjoy Endgame even though it was the last TV Borg story in 2001 (Until ENT did their own episode but thats for another discussion) and featured their apparent final end, not counting the endless books that have been brought out since that time.
     
  2. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't think they intentionally tried to weaken the Borg.
    I think the concept the writers had Voyager exploring was the idea Lt. Eddington started in DS9, about how the Federation isn't much different than the Borg. Voyager was more about humanitizing the Borg and showing that they aren't one big willing, functioning unit but rather billions or people trapped and enslaved by one mind, the Queen. Voyager was much about how Federation life relies allot on technology, Borg life relies allot on technology. Was Admiral Janeway in "Endgame" much different than the Borg Queen in "Unimatrix Zero" when it came to protecting and saving her "family"?

    I think this is the point on why we had to encounter and explore the Borg way of life so much on Voyager.
     
  3. Bisz

    Bisz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think Voyager totally pooched the Borg, then again I think Voyager is by far the worst of the shows so screwing the Borg is par for the course.

    I've even come to appreciate Enterprise a lot more after re-watching it start to finish on DVD (S1 ok, S2 terrible, S3 good, S4 great). I'll be giving Voyager the same chance later this year but I have already seen a lot more of it than I had of Enterprise before re-watching it so I'm not expecting Janeway & Lackeys to get the same reprieve in my eyes that Archer & Co. got.

    P.S. Yes, the Borg were meant to be the big, bad, super scary, overwhelming and unbeatable opponent when they were introduced in TNG.
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The were never meant to be Galactic Enemy No.1 in the first place. They were just supposed to be a tough enemy, not THE enemy.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not only were they supposed to be THE ENEMY, what with being foreshadowed in the final episode of Season One TNG, but they were supposed to be Insects.

    Accountants.

    Fuck'em.
     
  6. jpch

    jpch Commander Red Shirt

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    after reading for 30 min im glad that some people are decent enough to know what happened on Voy. and also so many of the comments like ''Voyager destroyed 10 cubes alone'' bla bla bla are totally idiotic remarks mad by people who didn't even watch the show and hate on it. Voyager was always running away from the Borg and barely stood a chance vs a sphere,and when it took on the tactical cube they had Seven of nine expertise as well anti-Borg modifications made by a 29th century drone...also during that battle we saw Voyager making circles and maneuvering around the Tactical cube so fast,that is clearly a tactical advantage unlike the Galaxy who was so fat and slow and barely moved in a battle.
     
  7. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Indeed.

    Almost as if the CGI Voyager special-effects from the later seasons were a decade more advanced than the huge physical models used to film the Enterprise-D isn't it?

    Although the CGI Galaxies in DS9 moved about quite a bit now I think about it.

    Damn those people you mention and their idiotic comments...
     
  8. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Voyager was going to be DESTROYED by a sphere in "Drone" despite the help from a 29th century drone. Voyager taking on a tactical cube in "Unimatrix Zero" was a load of bullsh*t, nothing can change my mind on that. That whole episode was awful and the first truly terrible Borg episode in my opinion (although I thought "Collective" wasn't very good), you can refer to sfdebris's recent review on how inept it was.
     
  9. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, I think the Sphere from 'Drone' was the one that adapted way too fast to Voyager's attempt at disabling it's engines.
    It was nothing more than a gimmick to emulate the 'danger' the Borg presented so that 'One' could sacrifice himself to save the ship asap.
    I would at least think the enhancements 'One' did would give the Sphere a pause.

    As for Voyager's assault at the Tactical cube... Voyager was barely able to hold on in a firefight with it, plus the cube didn't really see it as a real threat.
    And why would it?
    Even with the modifications from 'One' and 7 of 9 on-board, Voyager was no match for it - but it WAS able to hold on it's own for a small amount of time (a few minutes) before it retreated - although the queen could have been toying with it for the sake of it.
    Plus we saw just how fast the shields (in certain areas) were pierced by the Tactical cube.

    And even with the 'liberated sphere', the Cube was receiving more damage, but it was still in a winning position.
    The Queen merely destroyed the cube out of pure spite for Janeway's trickery - which was way too emotional on her part.
     
  10. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    LOL its absurd, your attempts at explaining it away just make me laugh. Sometimes bad writing and continuity is just bad writing and bad continuity. Just call a spade a spade.
     
  11. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Or a shovel a shovel...
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Sphere in "Drone" was a Tactical Sphere, equal to a Tactical Cube. It wasn't the same type of small escape vehicle that we saw in FC.
     
  13. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ah I see.
    By that analogy, it's just as laughable the Enterprise-D survived the onslaught from the cube's cutting beams in BoBW RIGHT until the part where Data put the Borg 'to sleep'.
    Or where the Enterprise-D suffered critical damage from a dingy BoP which realistically should have been destroyed in an opening salvo if Riker was smart enough to order it in the first place.

    Or how about the Defiant being 'spared' destruction in it's first confrontation with the Dominion bug ships when the Oddysey was destroyed simply because the 'heroes' were on board?

    Or how many times have we heard 'shields cannot survive another hit' and then hearing at least a dozen impact shots?

    Point being... my explanation is hardly a 'poor excuse for bad writing'.
    Real life is certainly complicated enough to throw numerous wrenches into people's expectations, so why is it so hard to imagine the situation where Voyager went up against the Tactical cube and was able to hold on it's own for a few minutes?
    Certainly the smaller ship was seen on the losing side if anything... not on the winning one.
    Also... have you even SEEN how the queen behaved all emotional?
    Why else would she invoke the cube's self destruct especially when it could have won?

    What about First Contact?
    Why wasn't the cube destroyed by an entire fleet of SF ships and conveniently waited for the Enterprise to show up and deliver the finishing blow?
    Lol...
     
  14. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Because its completely idiotic based on what we've seen of previous encounters with the Borg?
     
  15. Sandoval

    Sandoval Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    To be fair Starfleet vessels do seem able to last a few minutes against a Borg ship under most circumstances - yeah they get beaten the living shit out of but they don't get blown up immediately.
     
  16. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not really, the Tactical Cube was smaller and weaker than the Assimilation Cube (the one from "Q,Who?" and BOBW) and the Ent-D took plenty of punishment from that ship without being destroyed.
     
  17. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    LOL NO. You keep saying that and it continues to sound like total and utter bullshit to me.
     
  18. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It is.

    Anwar went round 'n round with several people back in this thread's previous life, and - unsurprisingly - there isn't any actual evidence that a "Tactical Cube", a ship described as being "heavily armed", would be weaker than the cube seen in BoBW. Even the notion that it was physically smaller was left ambiguous after the dust had settled. Also, he is again employing the completely made-up term "Assimilation Cube" and throwing it about as if it were a long-established thing that everyone knows, despite the fact that the phrase "Assimilation Cube" has never been uttered on screen.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I try to defend both VOY and the Borg in a manner that keeps both the VOY fans and the Borg fans happy, and I still get nothing but criticism. Figures.

    Does anyone complain that Crusher took out the Renegade Borg Cruiser in "Descent"? No.

    Does anyone think the Ent-D or Ent-E could never defeat a Borg Probe ship? No.

    Does anyone think that VOY could survive any encounters with the Borg, even if all they do is sh*t themselves and run away? No.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  20. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And here we go again. :lol:
    Is that why you're here? To try and mollify these two groups that are constantly at each other's throats? (Disclaimer: no one is actually at anyone's throat)

    This isn't about you trying to make people happy, it's about you saying something that is incorrect, and then repeating that same thing over and over.
    Of course they don't. They used a frakking solar flare to destroy it. Complaining that the Borg should be able to withstand natural destructive forces of that magnitude would be silly. Also, it wasn't a normal Borg ship.
    Good thing no one believes that Voyager could never do the same, then. :techman:
    What? That last one didn't even make any sense.
     

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